Sicko movie.

[MindlessOath]

http://www.newstarget.com/021906.html

i dont think its out yet, but its on the internet everywhere. moore says he doesnt care that people are pirating it, but lionsgate seems to care.

anyways....

the real topic is the discussion of his movie about helthcare in america, and since both american and canadians visit this site (as well as other people in this world), give a chime in.

i know that moore's not really that great, mostly known for being biast views and editing things in his favor for his movies, but does he really have a point?  i know alot of this can be contridicted, but you still have to admin there is a problem, dont you?

i dunno, tell me what you think, could we get better helthcare in cuba? lol, seriously - disuss this!

[Dr.Jeckyl]

MO, do you use firefox? if so you know it has a spell checker built in right?

seriously though, i moved this here since it's more suitable. Moore is a hot topic with alot of people. i personally like the guy, and not for what he stands for. mainly for the questions he raises that are never thought of.

[MindlessOath]

yes, thats why i like him... yes i saw his last movie and would have to agree with people who dont like him for several reasons they usually list - facts etc.  but the problems still exist and they are usually real and importaint problems.

thanks for moving it here, i didnt realize atm

and no, i dont use firefox anymore - its got memory leaks and is sorta slow unless tweeked, i like it better for many respects, espeically spell check and various addons, but ie seems to be much faster, anyone have a spell check for ie? i think i tried IEpro but it doesnt work correctly and often looses the connection between the dns server, but i belive it had spell check.

[Ronin]

MO, do you use firefox? if so you know it has a spell checker built in right?

seriously though, i moved this here since it's more suitable. Moore is a hot topic with alot of people. i personally like the guy, and not for what he stands for. mainly for the questions he raises that are never thought of.

I don't mind Moore for raising the questions he raises. But I do disagree with nearly all of his conclusions, assertions, insinuations, innuendo and accusations, though.

[Ronin]

yes, thats why i like him... yes i saw his last movie and would have to agree with people who dont like him for several reasons they usually list - facts etc.  but the problems still exist and they are usually real and importaint problems.

thanks for moving it here, i didnt realize atm

and no, i dont use firefox anymore - its got memory leaks and is sorta slow unless tweeked, i like it better for many respects, espeically spell check and various addons, but ie seems to be much faster, anyone have a spell check for ie? i think i tried IEpro but it doesnt work correctly and often looses the connection between the dns server, but i belive it had spell check.

Wow, you're first person I know of to say that IE is faster than FireFox.  On my machine FireFox loads at least twice as fast as Infernal Exploder.  And it loads pages faster, I can turn off all the flash stuff, it downloads better.  I'm just never going back to IE.

[MindlessOath]

nope... i have used many computers in many places and out of the box ie7 is great, anything less like ie6 is terrible i will admit that 100%! i changed to firefox when i heard about it and there was no ie7 - so i know how fast it is, and i know its usefullness.  with ie7 i lack all the usefullness but its faster and i like the browser tabs etc.  i still use thefox when im running linux, but thats about it, it doesnt load any faster GUI wise - firefox is a slow loader. pageloads are not faster unless tweeking the backend of firefox.

[MindlessOath]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/28/sicko.fact.check/index.html#

cnn did a report and concluded alot of truth from this movie. ok, "mostly right" was the words used.

That's no surprise given the number of U.S. specialists. In U.S. medical schools, students training to become primary-care physicians have dwindled to 10 percent. The overwhelming majority choose far more profitable specialties in the medical field. In other countries, more than one out of three aspiring doctors chooses primary care in part because there's less of an income gap with specialists. In those nations, becoming a specialist means making 30 percent more than a primary-care physician. In the United States, the gap is around 300 percent, according to Keckley.

As Americans continue to spend $2 trillion a year on health care, everyone agrees on one point: Things need to change, and it will take more than a movie to figure out how to get there.

[MONOLITH]

What?

CNN supporting Micheal Moore?

Oh, say it ain't so.





What would you expect?   It's the same as FOX supporting Bush.

[MindlessOath]

well. i read a few more articles today that totaly say that there is annother side to things, and ya, i agree there is annother side, and moore is not trying to show that other side, cause healthcare is a problem and he is trying to do something about it.

well... some may not like his methods, at least its something, do you think anyone else was going to do something about the issue? NOPE.

does any one like bush anymore? nope. even those who did like bush dont, was that thanks to moore? nope, but he had a point. biased in his own view, but he wasnt trying to show the other side.  

I know there is annother side, i wish he would state that too, cause alot of people dont know that other side, he takes advantage of that, i know, but if he doesnt the point just becomes more moot and people dont do moot about it.

[Aramis]

Actually, this is supposedly a return to form for Moore. Since Fahrenheit 9/11 came out, he's been pretty bashed for his one-sided reporting and cheap measures. Now certainly, taking a boat to Cuba is pretty sensational, but from what I've heard this is more of his old style.

We'll see. I'm interested in seeing it eventually, but I'll hold my reservations till then.

[MONOLITH]

does any one like bush anymore? nope. even those who did like bush dont, was that thanks to moore? nope

That doesn't mean they've suddenly embraced liberalism and socialized medicine.

I don't need my taxes to go up 35% so I can wait 6 months for a heart test and then stand in line next to a welfare drug addict because we now all get treated the same.

You think Moore goes down to the welfare clinic in the bronx to get his flu shots?

You think Hillary Clinton is going to?

Go ahead. Vote for government run socialized medicine. And watch our healthcare quality drop to the level of a third world country. When doctors have no more reason to become doctors. When there's no more money for research and development of vaccines and medicines.

Liberalism, Poltical correctness, unchecked immigration and birth rates will be the extinction of western civilization.

[Aramis]

does any one like bush anymore? nope. even those who did like bush dont, was that thanks to moore? nope

That doesn't mean they've suddenly embraced liberalism and socialized medicine.

I don't need my taxes to go up 35% so I can wait 6 months for a heart test and then stand in line next to a welfare drug addict because we now all get treated the same.

You think Moore goes down to the welfare clinic in the bronx to get his flu shots?

You think Hillary Clinton is going to?

Go ahead. Vote for government run socialized medicine. And watch our healthcare quality drop to the level of a third world country. When doctors have no more reason to become doctors. When there's no more money for research and development of vaccines and medicines.

Liberalism, Poltical correctness, unchecked immigration and birth rates will be the extinction of western civilization.

Canada seems to get by ok.


(And yes, this was a bit of flamebait but I couldn't resist. Feel free to ignore it.)

[MindlessOath]

ya, you think everyone else is in the shit hole?  you think america would be in the crapper ... hell no, america is the biggest buncha complainers, that wouldnt happen with a 10 foot stick.

its people who are scared that dont want to do something that makes a differnce.

[Ronin]

nope... i have used many computers in many places and out of the box ie7 is great, anything less like ie6 is terrible i will admit that 100%! i changed to firefox when i heard about it and there was no ie7 - so i know how fast it is, and i know its usefullness.  with ie7 i lack all the usefullness but its faster and i like the browser tabs etc.  i still use thefox when im running linux, but thats about it, it doesnt load any faster GUI wise - firefox is a slow loader. pageloads are not faster unless tweeking the backend of firefox.

That IE7 is faster than FireFox is your opinion.  I don't share it and neither do a lot of people I know.  IE7 loads slower than FireFox on an initial load.  IE7 insinuates itself into the OS whereas FireFox does not.  Loading stand alone, IE7 takes longer to load and always takes longer to load web pages.  (we tested it extensively at work and decided to stay with FireFox as the official internal browser).  So this isn't just my perceptions.

IE7 is a minor improvement over IE6 behind the screen.  But I can't stand the interface redesign of IE7 (whose stupid idea at Microsoft is it to remove the menus from all their programs? Ribbons? WTF is that?).  Even when you restore the menu bar it's in the WRONG place.  And they put crap on the right side that I don't want there.  The interface in IE6 just works and it's easy to use.  The redesign makes it harder to use, not easier (let's move the commonly used buttons from the tool bar and scatter them to hell).

The ONLY reason I EVER use IE is because so many web designers use Microsoft specific crap on their web page so you HAVE to use IE on those pages.  Blech.

Give me the shock and flash blockers and the huge number of very useful plugins for FireFox.  I use IE only when I have to.  And I avoid those sites if possible.

[Ronin]

ya, you think everyone else is in the shit hole?  you think america would be in the crapper ... hell no, america is the biggest buncha complainers, that wouldnt happen with a 10 foot stick.

its people who are scared that dont want to do something that makes a differnce.

I take it you are in favor of socialized medicine.  Your post is mostly unintelligible.  but the "complainers" line sticks out.

The United States has the best health care SYSTEM in the world bar none.  The most advanced medicine in the world is done here.  And people go to great lengths to get their illnesses treated here.

No-one in the United States is (legally) denied health care based on not being able to pay. Hospitals are _prosecuted_ for turning away patients who can't pay.  They are _required_ to treat those who _need_ treatment.

Socialized medicine is a very bad idea.  It causes all sorts of problems.  The best doctors will leave the country to find someplace to practice where they can charge what their talents are worth (many American doctors are from Canada).  Socialized medicine always means rationed care.  That means that you might have to wait months to get treated for something if you can get it treated at all.  The government decides who gets treated and what they get treated for.

And I disagree with _any_ policy that operates on the premise that one person is entitled to the labor or property of another and that property or labor will be taken from that person and given to the other at the point of a gun.  That's just _wrong_!

Government control of heath care will turn out worse than letting the insurance companies control it.  I absolutely guarantee it.  The government doesn't do anything well except waste money.

Socialism in ANY form is evil.  Socialism is the forced pooling of resources.  And is anathema to a free society.

Be careful what you wish for.  You may get it.

[MONOLITH]

hell no, america is the biggest buncha complainers, that wouldnt happen with a 10 foot stick.

its people who are scared that dont want to do something that makes a differnce.

Scared? Try smart.  

It's the uneducated, can't spell or type an intelligent sentence, morons that have no clue what they are really voting for that make a difference. A bad difference.



And the fact that "Canada does ok" has absolutely nothing to do with what would happen in this country.


Socialized medicine creates Queuing.  People wait weeks or months longer than their freemarket counterparts for treatment. People die from illness where they would have been saved if treated sooner.

Free Market health care systems offer higher pay to doctors and nurses, luring higher skilled medical knowledge. Often new and cutting-edge sub-specialties are more widely available in the U.S. as opposed to anywhere else.

The free market health industry makes enormouslyhigher investments in new technology. Amercia ranks first in the world with the number of MRI scanners per capita and 3rd with CT scanners.

Contrary to popular belief, malpractice lawsuits do not account for a large portion of American healthcare spending. Indeed, payouts to Canadian plaintiffs were higher than those to Americans. Average payouts to American plaintiffs were $265,103. Payouts to Canadian plaintiffs averaged $309,417[26].

A large amount of evidence indicates the survival and cure rates of disease and illnesses are higher in the US than anywhere else in the world.




You live in America Mindless. You reap all it's benefits. Yet you bash Anericans, you bash America. You come back from a Micheal Moore sensationalistic, ultra biased, propaganda film and think you have an education on health care.

If America is so awful, you and Moore should find another country to live in.

[DaSmerg]

The last time the U.S.'s healthcare situation came up I thought I remembered a couple of guys on Frontline who had published a paper and book.

Now these weren't just a couple of regular joes, these were two insurance industry exec's with 2 lifetimes of experience in health care related expenses.  What they talked about doing was a combination system.  The area that they talked about that creates a lot of $$$ waste was in the paper management for both hospitals and insurance companys.

Their suggestion was that a streamlined public system manage the whole document side as governments have a long history of effectively managing mass amounts of documentation and every day peeps could see real dollar savings.

[MindlessOath]

well.. its really a large problem, my mother was a nurse and we know alot about what goes on.
not only that but i suffer from no insurance right now.

we know that alot of people are gaining more money and taking advantage of the system we have in place, like pooling money from each visit if you have an hmo and various amounts of other tactics that are taken advanatage of from doctors and insurance agents.

im just saying there is a problem and something needs to be done about it. its not like i dont know whats going on, i live life and i have issues with whats going on since it affects me.  wish i could say i have insurance like you atm, but i dont, so no dental, no vision and no operation that i need to fix my arm, or my back, im not about to pay large amounts of money so i suffer even more.  

well im sure there is more to meets the eye and that not everyone knows it, but sorry your not one of the affected people out there. mabe if the case was turned around and you could see behind walls it would then matter to you.

[MONOLITH]

but sorry your not one of the affected people out there. mabe if the case was turned around and you could see behind walls it would then matter to you.

See behind walls? Doesn't affect me?

Maybe your mom the nurse can help you pull your foot out of your mouth.  Here you go, telling me what I am and what I think, when you don't know.

You don't know my situation.


I don't have health insurance either. And I have a wife and 4 kids.  I'm self employed so I can't even find affordable insurance like you can through an employer.

My daughter is a worst scenario diabetic. She also had a seizure disorder which ultimately ended up with brain surgery.

Not too long ago, I broke my ankle. It needed surgery. Because I had no insurance, the hospital wanted $5000.00 up front. I said no thanks. Not only that, but at the time I couldn't even afford for the
doctor to cast it, so I didn't go and get that done either. On top of that, being self employed with no regular paycheck, I was the only one that could bring in money to pay the bills and buy food to feed everyone.

I dug some old crutches from out of the closet, I wrapped it in an ace bandage, I went to the health food store and bought calcium tablets.  For three weeks I ate calcium tablets and drank milk daily.

I walked on that ankle in under 28 days so I could make some money. My ankle still isn't right.

My kids don't get to the dentist when they should.

So don't f*cking tell me I can't "see it" and I'm not affected.


BUT


None of that means I should run out and vote for a change that will only bring new problems, just because Moore hates Bush.

None of that means I should turn our medical system over to some socialized government run bureaucracy.

Ever wait in line for hours at the Department of Motor Vehicles?  Only to get up to the counter to face some cranky smart ass disinterested government employeee who couldn't give a crap about you?

Wait until that's your doctor you need to save your life.

[MindlessOath]

HUH? you make this argument but then you say your to ________ to do anything about it.  and blaming it on my like for moore? fill in the blank cause i dont care what the answer to it is.

 i agree with something has to be done, not with moore. i agree that at least he is trying to do something granted its not the greatest way to do it.

why sit around and not do anything about it? to many people do that and nothing gets done about it while others are making profit from it and your still f* up cause the way the situation is.  i would call that a problem?

things can be done and should be done, mabe not the way your talking about to make things worse, but something can be done!  there are people getting paid to figure things like that out.  nothing gets done the RIGHT way because of someones greed, but that will happen no matter what, at least you and i will get fixed up.