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Author Topic: On Lieberman  (Read 2888 times)
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MONOLITH
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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2006, 07:09:12 PM »

I hear you Smerg. And as I hand you this small olive branch, I'll say I have many of the same questions and concerns.

But recently we had a choice:

The dems wanted to put the restraints back on the Patriot act. "Too much privacy invasion". How dare those evil republicans.

Bush said "Stay the course".

Yesterday, thanks to NSA intercepts, tapped phone lines, and the types of monitoring the Patriot act allowed, the Republican run government prevented another 9/11 disaster of epic proportions, and assisted Britain in tracking and capturing the purpotrators.

So, since my wife and kids didn't die on their plane flight yesterday, I'll take "stay the course".


As far the strategy, and should we change it?  

I fully agree I think there is something going wrong with our military gameplan, that we as of yet do not have things under control in Iraq. I'm both dissapointed, and surprised, that the world's greatest military power can't get some thugs under control. But it's always been that way; the British Redcoats thought the same things about George Washington's barefoot gang of misfits.

But we're presented with two choices yet again;

The Lamont crowd, who stood behind him on TV chanting "Bring our troops home now", want to withdraw from our presence in the mideast, wants Isreal to back off of Hezbollah, and think that if we simply leave those poor people alone, they will leave us alone.

They forget that 9/11 happened long before we invaded the mideast.

The Islamist radicals want to destroy the western culture. PERIOD. They are not going to stop. Iran will nuke Isreal if it gets the chance.

There are details coming out of this air terror plot now, that it probably would have taken place on August 22nd, a famous day in history for the muslim world, something about the day Saladin conquered Jeruselum or something. It is the day that the muslim radicals are supposed to bring about the Apocolypse. And it is being rumored now, that on August 22nd, while America was busy at home buried under 5 different cities under jet attack and 50thousand dead bodies, it's resources tied up in domestic economic collapse, that Iran and Syria would make a move against Isreal.

We are in deep shit. And it is not because of George Bush.

It is thanks to the Patriot Act that we can see some of these attacks coming. And it is thanks to the War on Terror and our presence in the mideast, that we have at least taken the fight to the enemy, to slow them from coming to us. We have been able to stop savages like Zarqawi who cuts Americans heads off.

If we do not fight this war, and we do not go after them, and we do not win, it's very clear they will be over here bombing subways, crashing jets into buildings, and doing whatever they can do to destroy the free western world.

I like my life. I know you like yours in Canada. Let's try to keep them.

And to me, especially after staying the course recently stopped another 9/11 or worse, I'll choose staying the course. If we choose to subscribe to the Lamont philosophy, we might as well just sit down and wait to have our heads cut off.
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DaSmerg
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« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2006, 08:04:18 PM »

AFAIK, Patriot Act had little to nothing to do with the arrests.  It was infiltraiton by British police and not only discovery of the cell but learning of what it was about set to do.

Here's the real problem I'm having right now though Mono, dunno if you skipped over that part or just selective reading :tongue:  ...what's going on in Iraq is really a US/UK problem.  While I have feelings and ideas on Iraq, my concern is with the greater misnomer war on terror.  Over the past 2 years, we're now seeing homegrown terrorist from western countries being caught in these plots.  Each plot escalating in what they are trying to do.  Each little plot also having ties back to Afghanistan and/or Pakistan and the group that was supposedly mostly dead or disfunctional, or at least that's what we're being told, Al Quedia.

While I feel detecting these different plots leads me to believe that we are using the right tools, something seem seriously flawed with the strategy that has now stirred up homegrown groups here in western countries.
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DaSmerg
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« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2006, 08:19:22 PM »

Unearthing the fear growing in England
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MONOLITH
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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2006, 09:52:55 PM »

Quote from: DaSmerg
AFAIK, Patriot Act had little to nothing to do with the arrests.  It was infiltraiton by British police and not only discovery of the cell but learning of what it was about set to do.



They were being tracked and monitored on both sides of the Atlantic for months.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/10/AR2006081001654_pf.html
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MONOLITH
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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2006, 10:25:45 PM »

Quote from: DaSmerg
dunno if you skipped over that part or just selective reading :tongue:  ...something seem seriously flawed with the strategy that has now stirred up homegrown groups here in western countries.


Not skipped at all.  I'll answer it this way;


    The attacks that Islamic fanatics are carrying out on the free world (Which includes Spain, remember that little train station thing?) would have continued, and grown in size and scope, whether we went into Iraq or not. Again, the long list of terror attacks, before 9/11, happened long before we went into the mideast militarily. Clearly the western world/culture was under attack by radical islamic militants long before Bush, long before Iraq, long before the War on Terror.  

Naturally, as months and years go by, any terrorist organization both recruits more members, places sleeper operatives in strategic locations, and develops better technology and methods.

Even if we had never begun the War on Terror, it's naive to think Al Quaeda would have stayed status quo, and not looked into ways to pull off more attacks. Including, (and what should be obvious as a 'good strategy') recruiting and promoting sympathetic cells here in the west, like you just recently had in Canada.

My point is, you cannot blame the war on terror, for creating terror cells in the west. Not only is it naive to assume they wouldn't exist, but they were there long before the war on terror.

Do a little research on Deerborn, Michigan. Largest muslim population the the US. They're in the streets chanting praises for Hezbollah, and screaming for death to Isreal and the infidels (Me and you).  This was going on long before the War on Terror started.

As for a flawed Iraq, I already admitted I'm both surprised and disappointed in my country that they're havng as much difficulty as they are. Was Iraq the wrong strategy? Who's to say? Certainly not you or I, who only know what we read from our favorite biased news sources and blogs. You're not a military strategist, and neither am I. And I'm sure there's a whole lot we don't know and are not being told about the long term goal.

I'm willing to bet Iraq was never the real goal. The US and the UK are not stupid. They've always known Iran and Syria are the real problem over there. And so now when you look at a map, between Afghanistan and Iraq, coalition forces have Iran surrounded. It's much easier to launch an air assault against Irans nuke facilities when you have an allied airport on each side of the enemy, yes?

Are things going well on the ground in either Iraq or Afghanistan? It's easy to say 'nope'. But just because it isn't easy, doesn't mean you pick up your ball and go home a quitter.
Quitting, which the dems want us to do, is to accept defeat. It means allowing Iran to exert even greater influence in the region, and to pursue it's nuclear death technology, it means letting Hezbollah continue it's reign of terror against Isreal, and it means allowing Al quaeda to have free reign in countries like Afghanistan to train and plot for more attacks against the west.

The Franklin D. Roosevelt (a democrat)  mentality of "nothing less than unconditional surrender or annilihation of our enemy" is the only thing that will stop an enemy bent on your destruction based on religious fundamentals.

This isn't pretty. This isn't easy. It isn't going to be over quickly. But 'staying the course'  has offered the west a higher degree of protection than if we did the alternative.
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DaSmerg
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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2006, 11:19:12 PM »

Will answer back prolly in the morning.  Think I've used up enough spare time at work today on this...tee hee.
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DaSmerg
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« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2006, 12:41:57 AM »

Quote from: MONOLITH
...The attacks that Islamic fanatics are carrying out on the free world (Which includes Spain, remember that little train station thing?) would have continued, and grown in size and scope, whether we went into Iraq or not...


Your probably right, as in, the present/future that might have been you are suggesting has a high probability of occuring.  I won't deny that terrorist attacks of some sort would have continued to be at least attempted.

Here's what I'm getting at though...

What is the game plan that revolves, for the Americans and British part, around shaping a new middle east built on change largely to occur in Iraq, secondarily in Afghanistan?

Was this invasion and gameplan hatched because of a desire to confront and thwart terrorism in it's own back yard, or is this exercise of democritization by means of military might part of a plan to exert western influence directly on the region for future political-economic rationales?

See, I don't really buy into the fighting terrorism bit as more time passes.  We see little to nothing being done to counteract this pervision of the Islam faith that has become so prevelant amongst the extremist groups.  So much so infact that over the past two years, we are now seeing arrests around the western world of so-called 'homegrown' terrorists.  The folks arrested in Britian for these attempted bombings weren't from somewhere in the middle east, they were from Britian and had ties to Al Quedia.

In fact, by confronting Al Quedia in it's own back yard, have we possibly made the problem worse with half thought out ideas by allowing Al Quedia's brand of hatred to spread around the world to citizens in our own country who were of like mind, but until we started bombing their former and family's cities and country side, pushed them to the wrong side?

Why have we still not defined, at an international level, what exactly terrorism is?  As far as I understand, terrorism is a military tactic.  It's not very pretty, it kills untold amounts of innocents but it has been and continues to be a very formidable and at the same time, morally questionable military tactic.

The nuclear reactor of fundamentalist Islamic hate groups has been and continues to be the still ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that recently has now included Lebanon's Hezbollah group.  Why are we still seeing western leaders continue to push already proven failed policies?  Why have major efforts not still been made to bring this half century old conflict to some sort of closure?

You see, I'm not very believing in the war on terror bit myself.  I think if we are going to play offence against this modern incarnation of facism, we need to do it on multiple levels.  The 4 provinces of Iraq where 85% of the violence continues to occur in that country is only one small slice.

Looking at what's going on from my p.o.v., I think Sen. John Murtha was probably right in his estimation.  Move U.S. troops to the periphery of the Iraq theatre.  That means that can be there when needed but also serve in other functions in the region...which IMHO is sorely needed.  Iraq, from what I've seen, is not the battlefield of terrorism.  That battlefield lies in Afghanistan and in Pakistan for the leadership side and now the battlefield is in the hearts and minds of people in our own country Mono.  That's a frightening turn if you ask me.
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farmboy
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« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2006, 03:52:43 AM »

Quote from: DaSmerg
AFAIK, Patriot Act had little to nothing to do with the arrests.  It was infiltraiton by British police and not only discovery of the cell but learning of what it was about set to do.

The way I heard it, it was more Pakistan tipping the UK off than anything else.
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MONOLITH
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« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2006, 09:01:47 PM »

Quote from: DaSmerg

Looking at what's going on from my p.o.v., I think Sen. John Murtha was probably right in his estimation.  Move U.S. troops to the periphery of the Iraq theatre.  That means that can be there when needed .



The thing that is being completely ignored in this plan, is they are needed right now.

I'd love to see the troops pulled out. But do you seriously think that if we drive away to the 'periphery', we're not going to have to turn around and rush back in within 24 hours?

The vast majority of the violence right now isn't even directed at coalition forces, it's sectarian violence.

To listen to Murtha, would be to simply let Iraq fall into full blown civil war. Murtha does more talk to try to make himself look relevent than he does any real planning on the matter.
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MONOLITH
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« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2006, 09:09:46 PM »

Back to the thread topic...

http://rasmussenreports.com/2006/State%20Polls/August%202006/ConnecticutSenate.htm
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MONOLITH
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2006, 04:43:08 AM »

Lieberman brings out the "we're childish grudge holders and we'll get you somehow" in his fellow/former democrats.....


http://hill1.thehill.com/thehill/opencms/TheHill/News/Frontpage/081606/news1.html
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MONOLITH
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2006, 04:44:16 AM »

And he's also going to kick Lamonts Butt.....

"Likely voters said by a 53 percent to 40 percent margin that Lieberman, the Democratic Party's vice presidential candidate in 2000 and once a presidential candidate himself, deserves to be re-elected."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060817/pl_nm/connecticut_lieberman_dc
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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2006, 08:41:20 AM »

I'm not sure how I feel about Joe Lieberman.  On one hand, I really despise some of his ideas.  On the other hand, I respect the hell out of him for, like Zell Miller, having the balls to stand up and say "This is what I think" even when his own party ostracizes him for it.  While I don't agree with him on a great deal of things, I think we need more men who, when the time comes, are willing to be a damned man, and not cower to pressure.  Good leaders make tough decisions, and then stand by their decisions.  They don't cower and flip-flop when the pressure goes up.
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