How Christian radicals are no different than Muslim ones...

[Zazoo]

Why would we? The US is not waging a religious war, the Islamic fundamentalists are. So I'm not sure how we can distance ourselves from something that isn't happening in the first place.
Obviously, many people in the Middle East are convinced that the US is waging a Christian war against their region, but their seems to be little we can do to change that perception (given the current state of affairs).

Also, in the world today I don't see that Chrstian extremism is any where near as big a problem as Islamic extremism.

~Mike

[Da Fish]

Why would we? The US is not waging a religious war, the Islamic fundamentalists are. So I'm not sure how we can distance ourselves from something that isn't happening in the first place.
Obviously, many people in the Middle East are convinced that the US is waging a Christian war against their region, but their seems to be little we can do to change that perception (given the current state of affairs).

Also, in the world today I don't see that Chrstian extremism is any where near as big a problem as Islamic extremism.

~Mike

Why should we? because that is the way the enemy are using their propaganda. We need our media to be as supportive of our troops as companies like Al-Jazeera are of supporting Osama bin Laden. The only good news I see coming out of Iraq comes via websites like Military.com. The rest of it comes from the antiwar mass media who continualy talk about how Iraq is in a perpetual civil war. Winning the war is easy, its all about the guns and bullets and Shock and Awe. Winning the peace isnt. Its about hearts and minds of not only the population of the conflict region but those of the political fan base back at home. And the hearts and minds of the people at home (in the majority) wasnt won at home when the whole 2nd Iraq conflict started.

One possible way to do this would be to have a greater aggresive stance in the headlines against such events. things like "Islamic Extremists mercilessly slaughtered more Muslim policemen today. May those policemen find the truth and justice they seek in heaven."

Oh and for the record many Muslim supporters of the war on terror are insistant on saying things like "Crusader forces in Afghanistan and Iraq". They arent the same conflict. They arent for the many different reasons.
Also many Muslims, as Mike said, say that it is a religious war. I understand that the american constitution seperates "religious beleif" from state, unfortunately if they need EVERYONE (ie not just the people on this forum, who dont believe such brain wash) to beleive it. And I (personally) dont beleive that it will happen while they have a mid-right wing Christian in power.

slightly off topic....
During a speech last week, the british home secretary John Reid was heckled by a supporter of such extremism during a speech. BBC Radio 4 later got the heckler in for a interview. Listen to it here....(personally I like the bit about "well if you dont like it here why dont you go to a country which uses [islamic law]".

(its only going to be around for a week before the link changes)

[Zazoo]

Why should we? because that is the way the enemy are using their propaganda. We need our media to be as supportive of our troops as companies like Al-Jazeera are of supporting Osama bin Laden. The only good news I see coming out of Iraq comes via websites like Military.com. The rest of it comes from the antiwar mass media who continualy talk about how Iraq is in a perpetual civil war.

Well this isn't what I was talking about in my post, but:
A free press is the price we pay for living in a free and democratic society.
I agree that the media loves negativity, and I also agree that their are positive developements in Iraq. However, I personally feel that the overall picture in Iraq and the Middle East in general is pretty grim. I think it would be far worse if our media sold us the "A-OK everything is going as planned" image the administration has tried to push out. That would give us the false impression that the war was going great -- when it clearly isn't.

Winning the war is easy, its all about the guns and bullets and Shock and Awe. Winning the peace isnt. Its about hearts and minds of not only the population of the conflict region but those of the political fan base back at home. And the hearts and minds of the people at home (in the majority) wasnt won at home when the whole 2nd Iraq conflict started.

The population in the conflict zone are experiencing this war first hand, they don't need the media to tell them how it's going. As for the rest of us back home, what do you expect? Flawed intelligence, a persitent insurgency, a double talking administration,  etc. It's hard to feel good about something that looks more and more like a collosal mess each day. I'm sorry, but I honestly feel like this war has only made things worse for us. Iraq is a long way from a stable self-government, Iran is a huge threat, and even Afghanistan is seeing a resurgence of violence. That doesn't mean I don't support the troops. In fact it is just the opposite, because of the mess the administration has made out of Iraq I think it is vitally important that our troops succeed in Iraq.
 

One possible way to do this would be to have a greater aggresive stance in the headlines against such events. things like "Islamic Extremists mercilessly slaughtered more Muslim policemen today. May those policemen find the truth and justice they seek in heaven."

I guess it depends on what you think the role of a free press should be:
a) Neutral reporting of the facts.
b) Emotionally charged headlines meant to provoke a specific reaction/opinion.

Oh and for the record many Muslim supporters of the war on terror are insistant on saying things like "Crusader forces in Afghanistan and Iraq". They arent the same conflict. They arent for the many different reasons.

I agree, but how do you suggest we convince the people in the Middle East of this?

Also many Muslims, as Mike said, say that it is a religious war. I understand that the american constitution seperates "religious beleif" from state, unfortunately if they need EVERYONE (ie not just the people on this forum, who dont believe such brain wash) to beleive it. And I (personally) dont beleive that it will happen while they have a mid-right wing Christian in power.

I think the big problem is that the fanatics in the Middle East (and even some moderates) can't get their minds around ideas like religious pluralism and seperation of church and state. The nutbags also know that spinning this war as a Christian crusade makes it a lot easier to get people in the region to violently resist us.

~Mike

[MONOLITH]

I guess it depends on what you think the role of a free press should be:
a) Neutral reporting of the facts.

This is almost non-existent.

b) Emotionally charged headlines meant to provoke a specific reaction/opinion.

This is pretty much exactly what we already have; tainted further by political slant.

[Zazoo]

I think "role of a free press" was a poor choice of words on my part. What I was getting at was the responsibility of journalists and the role of journalism in countries where things like freedom of the press are considered fundamental rights.

Anyway, the question I asked wasn't what do you think the press is like, but essentially, what do you think the press should be like.

I agree with you that the press leaves much to be desired -- that's the problem.
~Mike

[Da Fish]

I think "role of a free press" was a poor choice of words on my part. What I was getting at was the responsibility of journalists and the role of journalism in countries where things like freedom of the press are considered fundamental rights.

Anyway, the question I asked wasn't what do you think the press is like, but essentially, what do you think the press should be like.

I agree with you that the press leaves much to be desired -- that's the problem.
~Mike

The press should be free, but IMO if they feel the need to report the deaths in combat zones, they should also feel the need to report the construcion of schools, water supplies and the arrest of murderers who insist on committing acts of terror in Iraq. The problem is the press isnt free, its ruled by one thing......... viewers and the $$$/£££ the viewers bring. And unfortunately the public love "car-crash tv".

Perhaps the foundation of a non-profit international news-agency would be the answer, hell get the UN to sponser it.

Perhaps though I should takes my meds' and return from cloud coocoo land

[Zazoo]

The press should be free, but IMO if they feel the need to report the deaths in combat zones, they should also feel the need to report the construcion of schools, water supplies and the arrest of murderers who insist on committing acts of terror in Iraq. The problem is the press isnt free, its ruled by one thing......... viewers and the $$$/£££ the viewers bring. And unfortunately the public love "car-crash tv".

I don't disagree with you at all there.

~Mike

[MONOLITH]

The problem is the press isnt free, its ruled by one thing......... viewers and the $$$/£££

Almost.

It's ruled by another thing. The political ideology of it's editors and owners.

A right tilted media denies the problems in Iraq, and highlights the progresses;
A left tilted media ignores the progresses and reports the problems.

At least under the current administration and political climate.

[nicotineforkids]

If Jesus Camp could be characterized as a genre film, I’d sooner label it horror than documentary. From the very outset and throughout its 80-some minutes, the mood is foreboding, with dirge-like music and stormy skies mixed with images of seven-year-olds speaking in tongues. The film is about a Midwestern summer camp for cute, little Christian preteens, and yet it comes across like Children of the Corn meets The Blair Witch Project.

(Or so the filmmakers hope.)

Directors Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady are following the recent trend of the terror-doc. Films like this summer’s An Inconvenient Truth—which was touted as “the scariest film you’ll see all year”—have perfected the application of thriller conventions and polarizing scare tactics to a medium that in previous eras was happily objective. Today, the “documentary” film is less about documenting something in the journalistic, reporting sense and more about how well real footage can be edited to form a compelling and manipulative narrative argument.

And the argument of Jesus Camp is pretty familiar: Evangelical Christians are radically conservative, gleefully anti-intellectual, flag-waving Dubya lovers who brainwash their WASP spawn in hopes of raising up an army to usher in a theocracy or the apocalypse, whichever comes first. The stereotypes propagated in the film seemed justified, because it is a documentary—simply cameras witnessing the reality of the situation. However, any stereotype can be propagated if you find the right people and know how to edit the footage. But you don’t see many documentaries out there blatantly reinforcing the worst kind of stereotypes about Jews, Hindus and certainly not Muslims, do you?

Christians are really the last major group to be openly, recklessly mocked in the media. For some reason, it is just not seen as politically incorrect to repeatedly portray Christians as bigoted, red-state ignoramuses. And for Christians, that is the most disturbing message of Jesus Camp.

The star of Jesus Camp is one Becky Fischer, a Pentecostal children’s pastor who looks like any other evangelical church lady. Fischer is something of a celebrity for her wildly popular summer camp, “Kids on Fire,” which is ironically held in Devil’s Lake, North Dakota, every summer. She is full of all sorts of soundbites such as, “George W. Bush has brought a lot of credibility to evangelical Christianity” and “Warlocks are enemies of God” (in reference to Harry Potter). No doubt Ewing and Grady had a hard time choosing which of Fischer’s golden comments to incorporate.

The majority of the film focuses on what goes on at the “Kids on Fire” camp. The shenanigans include kids dancing to Christian rap, tearfully praying for “righteous judges” and smashing “sinful” porcelain with a hammer. Oh, and there is a lot of crying, confession and hand-raising revival going on as well—more or less innocent if you have been around the Church and know what’s going on, but just-plain-creepy if you don’t.

Footage is also shot at some individual kids’ homes, where we meet homeschooling moms who insist that the class pledge allegiance to a color guard that includes the American, Christian and Israeli flags, as well as the Bible. We see Levi, age 12 (another “star” of the film), playing a creationism videogame and Tory dancing in her bedroom to Christian heavy metal.

There are also scenes at charismatic, megachurch New Life in Colorado Springs, in which pastor Ted Haggard (who heads up the powerful National Association of Evangelicals) is made to look like a cocky, power-mongering goof. And to drive home the “evangelicals as politicos” message, there is a scene of an anti-abortion protest on the steps of the Supreme Court as the young protagonists stand with duct-taped mouths to demonstrate and pray for the nomination of a pro-life judge.

All of this “craziness” is juxtaposed in the film to the “voice of reason,” Mike Papantonio, a liberal “Christian” radio host on the far left Air America station. He offers some really biting and ill-informed commentary that gives voice to the hidden agenda behind Jesus Camp. It would have been fine if Ewing and Grady had just filmed the goings-on of Becky Fischer’s camp; surely people would have understood that this is a small group of evangelicals and not the mainstream. But Papantonio insists that Fischer’s methods of “indoctrination” are the norm in evangelical Christendom, and it is a huge threat to the survival of the separation of church and state. And when Fischer herself calls in to speak with Papantonio (and subsequently digs herself and evangelicalism into a deeper hole), all you can do is cringe—or cry.

For Christians of any measure of moderation, Jesus Camp ends up being embarrassing, degrading and makes you feel like the silenced minority. It’s also maddening because I know we have in large part brought this on ourselves. Shame on us for letting the Pat Robertsons of the world be our cultural representatives. Shame on us for not producing films of worth that can portray our faith in more reasonable lights. Where are the filmmakers who will make a documentary about the many intelligent Christians out there? Or about the vast array of humanitarian causes that Christians are leading around the world? Or at least put into context some things shown in this film?

And yet part of me watches this film and feels solidarity with the Christians in it—sympathizing with the whole “raising up a generation” that will do more than their “fat and lazy” parents did. Part of me is riled up by the polemics of this film—it’s an attack on my religion, after all. I am almost inclined to join the culture wars myself and fight back … and yet I know that this is just what Jesus Camp wants. A war. In this way, the film is above all hypocritical. It chastens Christians for going the way of radical Muslims and brainwashing their young for a future on the battle lines of the cultural trenches; and yet the film is obviously meant to be nothing more than a rallying cry and wake up call for liberal America. How appropriately timed is this film, which was released first in the Midwest, just two months before a huge congressional election?

What we need is a better understanding of one another. The fear Hollywood has of Christians is founded on a basic ignorance of just what it means to be a Christian. And yet the stereotypes that are continually feeding the cycle do nothing to clear this up. Films like Jesus Camp do not promote a conversation or invite an exploration of Christianity. They promote terror and a culture of fear (Michael Moore style) that leaves secular America with one reasonable option: run for the hills; evangelical Christianity is the new jihad.

[SilentEdge]

Great post.

Nice to have you around nfk.

[Zazoo]

Hey NFK, nice to see you! Hope all is well.

An interesting review. I haven't seen the film, but plan to. Can't say much before I've seen it, but the reviewer does raise some good points. Luckily for most Christian, at least here in the US, the Christian faith is so prevalent and such a part of our culture and day to day lives that many people, even non-Christians have a pretty good ear for seperating the moderate, mainstream Christians from the fundamentalists. I think a lot of us know, even if the film tries to mislead, that this isn't an accurate the picture of your typical Christian.

Oh, and just a suggestion: when positing stuff from another source try to set it off with quotes or at least cite the source/url: http://www.relevantmagazine.com/pc_article.php?id=7265
Especially with articles in the first person, since without links it's hard to know when someone's posting their own comments or an editorial/review for discussion.
~Mike

[Da Fish]

Its NFK......

remember every one, you can check out, but never leave....