How Christian radicals are no different than Muslim ones...

[MONOLITH]

http://www.thatlitevideosite.com/video/3255

[Lazerblade]

Radical thoughts placed in a child's head before he or she can understand the truth will inevitably lead to the kind of hatred that burns within for years, blackening the core.

[Da Fish]

oh, great..........

how long till we see crusaders setting sail to save palestine from the non-believers?

:yikes:

[Zazoo]

If anyone needs me I'll be in the underground bunker with the rest of the agnostics and atheists.

Oh, and bring your own snacks -- we might be down there a while.
~Mike

[MONOLITH]

The most offensive part, is whether they admit it or not, the adult followers know full well that they are intentionally bending the mind of the child before he has the capacity (or has been given the right) to decide his beliefs for himself.

IMO, This should actually fall under the legal definitions of child abuse.

[BOBK]

Does getting on your knees and washing someone elses feet sound like something any of THEM would do?!?

I also do not believe in a "Christian Flag", or pledging anything to such a flag (which seems to be spreading lately, for some reason...at least locally, with the Baptists), nor do I believe that Jesus would approve, in the least bit.

I say a pledge to the American, United States of America, flag, not some new-fangled Christian flag, because it is the flag of my homeland, the place where I was born and it is a free land...still, after every cycle of greed and distrust sown by greed and corruption in the ranks, our Constituion still stands up!  Thats worth pleging to, and it is seperate from the "church".

I happen to believe in a loving god, and a plan for freeing mankind from his guilt, so that good works can bring peace to a war weary planet.

[Para]

I'll simply say:  Bear in mind that you're not getting the whole picture.  You're seeing what the film makers want you to see and hear.  The message of the Gospel is one of peace and reconciliation, whether film makers, haters of Christians or fanatics who call themselves Christians want to admit it or not.  There is no exclusive club with God.  His plan and his offer are open to everyone who believe, according to the Bible.

Please don't let fanatics -- or a possibly skewed and biased "documentary" to influence your opinion.  I'm not advocating extremism in any form but, as I browse the forums here (I rarely post anymore), I find alot of folks who seem to hate Christians, I dare say, simply for being Christians.  How is that any different than Christians supposedly hating unbelievers?  Sounds like the kettle calling the pot black.    I grow tired of seeing all Christians lumped into the "fanatical" category.  That's a narrow-minded view for anyone to take, and it's quite hypocritical for anyone who claims to be "open-minded" or "tolerant".  

I'd suggest taking the film for what it is:  A film, and nothing more.

[Lazerblade]

The message of the Gospel is one of peace and reconciliation, whether film makers, haters of Christians or fanatics who call themselves Christians want to admit it or not.
...That's a narrow-minded view for anyone to take, and it's quite hypocritical for anyone who claims to be "open-minded" or "tolerant".

Peace and reconciliation? Where? I have yet to see any reference in your "book" that spews forth peace over punishment.

Hypocritical? You think so? So anyone who isn't a radical "Christian" is hypocritical? Bullshit. And I know that's not what you're saying, believe me, I understand where you're coming from. But what you're not saying is just as important. Christians are typically very hypocritical, which makes them the least believable model for Chrisitianity. They typically label anyone who isn't with them as an evil being lacking morals and values.

Where's your open-mindedness there?

[Para]

Peace and reconciliation? Where? I have yet to see any reference in your "book" that spews forth peace over punishment.

Then you haven't read it very well.  Here's a passage from Ephesians chapter 2.  

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away (from God) have been brought near through the blood of Christ.  For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.  ... He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.  For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.  Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household.

Hypocritical? You think so? So anyone who isn't a radical "Christian" is hypocritical?

Great job twisting my words.  You're obviously reading what you want to read into my words.

And I know that's not what you're saying, believe me, I understand where you're coming from. But what you're not saying is just as important.

Yeah, what I'm not saying is very important.  I'm not saying Christians are any better than anyone.  I'm not saying you or anyone else is wrong for believing what you want to believe.  And you're not listening.

Christians are typically very hypocritical, which makes them the least believable model for Chrisitianity. They typically label anyone who isn't with them as an evil being lacking morals and values.

And you are qualified to judge the 'typical' Christian ... how?  If you'll notice, not once did I slander any other religion in my post.  Not once did I say you're wrong if you hate Christianity.  I asked for people not to lump all "Christians" into one boat.
 

Where's your open-mindedness there?

Where's yours?  You took my entire post and twisted it to fit your own viewpoint.

For the record, I despise people that preach fire and brimstone.  I'm not going to get into a theological debate (mostly because I doubt most would listen anyway) but neither Christ nor the Apostles taught condemnation.  As I said, believe what you want.  You might try reading the book of Ephesians though, if you're truly interested in what the Gospel is about.  Ephesians has been called the magna carta of Christianity, because it sums up the Gospel.  If you're not really concerned with that Christianity is about, then by all means, pass it on by.  I won't be offended in the least.

Take care.  

Also,

The most offensive part, is whether they admit it or not, the adult followers know full well that they are intentionally bending the mind of the child before he has the capacity (or has been given the right) to decide his beliefs for himself.

Believe it or not, I agree with that statement.  For one thing, sooner or later, the kid is going to start asking "Why do I believe what I believe?"  Without some personal reason for their beliefs, the person is going to faulter.  That leads to guilt, which leads to personal condemnation.  It would be better for the child, if the parents simply lived reputable lives.  Kids will notice, and mimic their parents.  When the child can reason for himself or herself and ask "Why do you do what you do, Dad?"  Then it's time to tell the child what you believe.

[Zazoo]

I'm not advocating extremism in any form but, as I browse the forums here (I rarely post anymore), I find alot of folks who seem to hate Christians, I dare say, simply for being Christians.

Speaking personally,
I only dislike certain kinds of Christians (hate is a bit strong... I have nothing personal against these people). After all, I understand that most of the radical Christians out there truly think that they are doing humans and God a great service by trying to save the rest of us, so I can't fault them for that, it is a form of compassion I suppose -- but it does get annoying (and potentially dangerous) after a while.

I only dislike Christians who try to force/intimidate other people in to believing as they do (and a seriously dislike those who actively attempt to undermine religious neutrality and pluralism in both the government and the public education system of this country).

~Mike

[MONOLITH]

Eek.

*now regrets the thread*

Sorry Para.

'General Christian Bashing' certainly wasn't my intent here.

The very specific point of this thread, (an apparantly the movie), is to point out extremists, and the danger they are to both children, and ultimately society in general. Notice the title of the thread.

Extremists could be anything, right down to fanatical Huey Lewis fans. :tongue:  This just happened to be Christians.

The only counter point I'll say to anything Para said, is just I wouldn't say 'just a movie, nothing more'; there clearly is a serious subculture of society being shown here. This is a documentary, those kids are not paid actors. To a Christian, this might be a bit of an embarrassment to have the spotlight shown on this type of fanatisicm, but that's not a valid reason to belittle a serious issue that's being unearthed.

Just feel secure that it's talking about the extremists, and not Christians in general.

Anywho, Let's not all get caught up in craziness in this thread.

Moving on....

[Lazerblade]

Para, I'm certainly not trying to cause an argument with you. I've read a lot of passages from the Bible. I used to be a devout Christian, going to Sunday worship and Wednesday night worship. I went to my grandparents' church for years, asking lots of questions, reading lots of informational books. I'm not an expert, but I'm also not ignorant of the teachings within the Bible.

I don't hate Christians, and I think you'll find that a lot of the people on these forums aren't anti-Christian. Most of us that label ourselves Agnostic or Atheist simply don't believe. Many of us have no faith in an all-powerful entity simply because of life experiences. Also, many of us feel that radicals of any kind are a threat, not directly to us, but to the image and outside perception of Americans of all faiths.

I apologize if I came off as harsh, but when it comes to religion even you have to admit that a person's beliefs are strong and when anyone challenges those beliefs, that person will defend his or her beliefs tooth and nail.

Now, to reiterate in softer words, I have come to view Christians as the ultimate hypocrites because of past experiences. Not one so-called "true Christian" that I have ever known has been strong enough in faith or character to adhere to the lifestyle emphasized in the Bible. Many of them are judgmental, intolerant, unapologetic, biased, and egotistical - not just on their own views but on issues between others of which they have no business commenting or expressing opinions about.

I don't judge you because you call yourself a Christian. I judge your actions against my own perceptions. When anyone starts preaching morals and the urgency of repenting, thumping their Bible and condemning the "unsaved", that's when I start yelling back.

It's all good. Anytime you want to hear my side of the story, just ask.

[Para]

Eek.

*now regrets the thread*

Sorry Para.

'General Christian Bashing' certainly wasn't my intent here.

The very specific point of this thread, (an apparantly the movie), is to point out extremists, and the danger they are to both children, and ultimately society in general. Notice the title of the thread.

Extremists could be anything, right down to fanatical Huey Lewis fans. :tongue:  This just happened to be Christians.

The only counter point I'll say to anything Para said, is just I wouldn't say 'just a movie, nothing more'; there clearly is a serious subculture of society being shown here. This is a documentary, those kids are not paid actors. To a Christian, this might be a bit of an embarrassment to have the spotlight shown on this type of fanatisicm, but that's not a valid reason to belittle a serious issue that's being unearthed.

Just feel secure that it's talking about the extremists, and not Christians in general.

Anywho, Let's not all get caught up in craziness in this thread.

Moving on....

Oh, I know it wasn't Mono.  I took no offense at you bro.

[Para]

Speaking of radicals... my wife sent me an article concerning the backlash in the Muslim world concerning the Pope's assertion that some Islamic teachings are hateful and violent.  Notice the reaction from one Muslim group:

"You infidels and despots, we will continue our jihad (holy war) and never stop until God avails us to chop your necks and raise the fluttering banner of monotheism, when God's rule is established governing all people and nations," said the statement by the Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups in Iraq.

Seems to me that the Pope was spot on.  I do take comfort in the hope that, just as the stupidity of the Christian Crusades eventually passed, so to shall Muslim fanatics quit thinking they can spread their religion via the sword.

And, by the way, my fellow Westerners... you are the infidel and the despot Muslim extremists want to behead.  Food for thought, next time anyone feels that it's wrong to pursue and kill every one of these twisted individuals.  If it were me, I think I'd rather be preached at all day than hacked to pieces.

[Zazoo]

I agree. I see nothing wrong with what the Pope said considering the context. The statement was the truth, and it highlights a major problem with Islam today -- it's not like any other religion is causing nearly as much bloodshed and oppression at this point in history. Unfortunately, it appears that a great number in the islamic world completely missed the point of the Pope's speech.

Apparently, Dutch cartoonists and Catholic holy men piss true Muslims off more than the violent radicals hijacking their own faith. After all, it's not like the Muslim world expresses this same level of outrage everytime someone sheds innocent blood in the name of their faith...
~Mike

[BajaBravo]

I think the response to the Pope's comments has been reasonable and measured. If I were to take offence to you implying that I am violent, it's only logical I should burn down your house, kill your sister, and threaten to lop your head off to prove you wrong.

Sarcasm aside, what's freaking wrong with people?

[Da Fish]

I agree. I see nothing wrong with what the Pope said considering the context. The statement was the truth, and it highlights a major problem with Islam today -- it's not like any other religion is causing nearly as much bloodshed and oppression at this point in history. Unfortunately, it appears that a great number in the islamic world completely missed the point of the Pope's speech.

Apparently no one has produced "Islamic" translation of the speech, so that all the non english speaking muslims can understand exactly what he said. Which leaves them nothing but Al-jizzera excerpts of editted propaganda. You can read the english

Apparently, Dutch cartoonists and Catholic holy men piss true Muslims off more than the violent radicals hijacking their own faith. After all, it's not like the Muslim world expresses this same level of outrage everytime someone sheds innocent blood in the name of their faith...
~Mike

A very good point.

[BajaBravo]

After all, it's not like the Muslim world expresses this same level of outrage everytime someone sheds innocent blood in the name of their faith...

To be fair there are many Muslims who do express outrage over the senseless violence. Unfortunately, because they have a more reasonable point of view, they don't get any air-time. The media is only interested in the fecktards.

A quick google search found me this site that quotes many such Muslims (and a supportive quote from President Bush) : http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

[Zazoo]

To be fair there are many Muslims who do express outrage over the senseless violence. Unfortunately, because they have a more reasonable point of view, they don't get any air-time. The media is only interested in the fecktards.

A quick google search found me this site that quotes many such Muslims (and a supportive quote from President Bush) : http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

Great site. Encouraging to read.
I didn't mean to imply that all Muslims supported terrorism. I certainly don't think that.

I don't blame the moderate Muslim community for the fanatics in their religion, I just think the moderate Muslim community needs to get a bit more united and a bit more proactive in distancing themselves from the nutbags. There needs to be an organized, active campaign designed to condemn, discredit, humiliate, and ostracize any group claiming to kill in the name of Islam. Part of the problem is that the most visible and vocal face of Islam most of the world sees is that of the fanatic fundamentalist Muslim -- and I do agree that the media is partly to blame. This isn't helped by the disproportionate number of piss poor role-models among the so-called "leadership" of Islam in the Middle East. There are some great Muslim holy men and leaders here in the west, but I wonder how much influence the words of these westernized Muslims have over "every-day" Muslims in the Middle East.

~Mike

[farmboy]

I don't blame the moderate Muslim community for the fanatics in their religion, I just think the moderate Muslim community needs to get a bit more united and a bit more proactive in distancing themselves from the nutbags. There needs to be an organized, active campaign designed to condemn, discredit, humiliate, and ostracize any group claiming to kill in the name of Islam.

Couldn't the same also be said of christianity?  Think about the fact that most of what Iraqis and Afghanistanis see of Americans are Bush on TV and soldiers walking down their streets.  Throw in some propaganda saying that that's what all Americans are liked, no wonder people are getting angry.  So maybe we should organize a campaign to distance ourselves from the nutjobs who cry heracy every time they see something they don't agree with.