How America Can Live With the Rest of the World

[farmboy]

Alright, so I could've posted this in chit-chat, but i figured it has a *small* chance of (read, "is certain to") starting a rather heated debate, so better to be down here.

For english, i was required to write a 1 paragraph satire about anything, written as though it was an excerpt from a larger piece.  As my thread/essay title says, I chose America's apparent inability to cooperate with the rest of the world.  Comments would be much appreciated, but please don't attack my opinions (I know i probably don't even have to say it, but...)

Here’s my solution to the problem of American involvement abroad.  Declare each country that opposes us an American colony.  Who’ll put a fight up?  Europeans won’t fight to save their lives.  Japan?  We literally own their army.  The Middle East?  We’re already making massive strides there.  At least, we aren’t losing any ground there.  If we did assimilate any opposition, we’d have no more problems with the lengthy red tape processes involved in a unilateral operation for countries we wish to conquer.  There’s no way we can lose!

Especially when the rest of the world votes the hard-line extremists out of office.

[Para]

Not really sure what you're looking for in response to that post.  My comments:  You barely have the life experience to hold a job, much less have a clue about world politics.  You're what... 17, 18 years old?  I don't mean this as a slanderous statement, because it isn't.  But your world views will change DRASTICALLY in the next ten to fifteen years.  If they don't, you aren't learning, and are therefore useless to yourself and everyone else.

[MONOLITH]

Wow. That's cold Para.

But I'm okay with it after reading this sentence.....

I chose America's apparent inability to cooperate with the rest of the world.

I guess the next time some country needs us to bail them out of debt, send them food, or save them from invasion and genocide, we should just give them this instead..

:moon:

but please don't attack my opinions

Sorry Farmboy, but if you're going to make a public defamation of a country, you need to expect someone to defend it as well.

[Ronin]

I'm not exactly happy with some of the things that the US has done.  I'm also not really happy about the way some things were handled, either.

But I'm also quite certain that the world would be a much worse place to live had the USA not been around for the last 230 years.

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and boo.  It's easy to criticize the actions of others.  It's much harder to actually get out and _do_ what you think is right and take the chance of a _very_ public mistake.

[farmboy]

@ mono: good point.  I meant more along the lines of Bush alienating us from most of our allies by going into Iraq, but I wasn't very clear about it, and, re-reading my post, I see it came out horribly wrong.  Your post wasn't really an attack, either, but more of a rebuttal.  So it's cool.

@ para:  Don't assume that because people are young that they are naive.  I have many friends who know more about politics than seventy percent of registered voters in my hometown.  Don't forget: it's our future the government is affecting with every bill passed, not the sixty year old fuddy-duddies in the retirement homes who think we should go back to the "good old days."  No, I don't know everything, but I'm not stupid, either.

Anyway, I was hoping for comments on how I could improve the satire, what's good, what's horrible, etc.

[MONOLITH]

@ mono: Your post wasn't really an attack

I'm glad that is how you percieved it, because it was just one of my kneejerk reactions. Nothing personal was intended.

[Lazerblade]

Just reading your paragraph, farmboy, I'd have to say that your solution has way too many holes in it. First off, the solution would immediately cause inner turmoil as citizens who had been "assimilated" rebel against such an overtaking. I know not every country has a democratic government or a substantial military presence, but you'll be hard-pressed to find any country that opposes the actions of the United States lacking in patriotism. Despite the masses of Americans who bash or hate Bush, or oppose his actions and reactions in world affairs, I'd estimate that at least 85% of those opposers are patriotic to the United States, despite its leaders' blunders.

I know you're just trying to throw a potential solution out there, but you may want to reword it to sound less hostile and dictator-like and more democratic and/or compromising. After all, politics is all about finding the compromise that you benefit from the most while sedating the other party.

[farmboy]

For english, i was required to write a 1 paragraph satire

:wink: :wink:
It's not a serious solution.  It's supposed to parody some of the Bush administration's recent foriegn relations actions.
I'd be scared of anyone who seriously thought America taking over the world was a solution for world peace.

[Para]

@ mono: good point.  I meant more along the lines of Bush alienating us from most of our allies by going into Iraq, but I wasn't very clear about it, and, re-reading my post, I see it came out horribly wrong.  Your post wasn't really an attack, either, but more of a rebuttal.  So it's cool.

@ para:  Don't assume that because people are young that they are naive.  I have many friends who know more about politics than seventy percent of registered voters in my hometown.  Don't forget: it's our future the government is affecting with every bill passed, not the sixty year old fuddy-duddies in the retirement homes who think we should go back to the "good old days."  No, I don't know everything, but I'm not stupid, either.

Anyway, I was hoping for comments on how I could improve the satire, what's good, what's horrible, etc.

Bro, no offense, but every teenager thinks he knows more than adults do.  Yes, my post was cold, and purposefully so.  You need to do some research, and learn about your country.  You need to learn when we began to have a sizeable influence on the world, and why.

[MONOLITH]

I'd be scared of anyone who seriously thought America taking over the world was a solution for world peace.

Sounds like a good plan to me.  

[Zazoo]

Not really sure what you're looking for in response to that post. My comments: You barely have the life experience to hold a job, much less have a clue about world politics. You're what... 17, 18 years old? I don't mean this as a slanderous statement, because it isn't. But your world views will change DRASTICALLY in the next ten to fifteen years. If they don't, you aren't learning, and are therefore useless to yourself and everyone else.

-----------------------------------------

Bro, no offense, but every teenager thinks he knows more than adults do.  Yes, my post was cold, and purposefully so.  You need to do some research, and learn about your country.  You need to learn when we began to have a sizeable influence on the world, and why.

And I'm sure every 45 year old would tell you and I that we'll learn a lot in the next 15 or so years. And I don't doubt that we both will learn a lot in that time. However, I don't think that gives anyone the right to dismiss someone else's thoughts and opinions outright based on age alone.
If you want to take issue with something someone has written/said, don't you think the most mature thing to do would be to address the points you disagree with, rather than resorting to insults and ad hominem attacks aimed a person's age? What right to you have to be so condescending?

And since farmboy clearly indicated that his writing was a highly condensed bit of satire (that clearly employs sarcasm and hyperbole), I'm not sure why you are so worked up about it.
~Mike

[Da Fish]

Here’s my solution to the problem of American involvement abroad. Declare each country that opposes us an American colony. Who’ll put a fight up? Europeans won’t fight to save their lives. Japan? We literally own their army. The Middle East? We’re already making massive strides there. At least, we aren’t losing any ground there. If we did assimilate any opposition, we’d have no more problems with the lengthy red tape processes involved in a unilateral operation for countries we wish to conquer. There’s no way we can lose!

Especially when the rest of the world votes the hard-line extremists out of office.

ok so here are some problems.....

Who’ll put a fight up? Europeans won’t fight to save their lives.

Beleive me, America wouldnt invade france, its full of french people!

Japan?

Great! if only there is a world shortage of PS3's!
[/sarcasm]

Satire

or at least sarcasm, can be very hard to deliver in print.

[Ronin]

And I'm sure every 45 year old would tell you and I that we'll learn a lot in the next 15 or so years. And I don't doubt that we both will learn a lot in that time. However, I don't think that gives anyone the right to dismiss someone else's thoughts and opinions outright based on age alone.
If you want to take issue with something someone has written/said, don't you think the most mature thing to do would be to address the points you disagree with, rather than resorting to insults and ad hominem attacks aimed a person's age? What right to you have to be so condescending?

And since farmboy clearly indicated that his writing was a highly condensed bit of satire (that clearly employs sarcasm and hyperbole), I'm not sure why you are so worked up about it.
~Mike

I remember having an "argument" with you over this very thing, Mike.  I don't think it resolved anything, then.

Try to think of this as the perspective of someone who has already been through what you are talking about.  Age discrimination.

First, it's not personal.  But remember that age is one of the few measures we have of someone's wisdom.  It's not even close to perfect.  But it's the only one we have when we first meet someone.  After that, conversation eventually tells us whether or not that peg from their age was correct or not.  And that estimation can go up or down.

I think, also, the main reason why we use age as a measure of wisdom is because there's only so much life experience that can be crammed into a certain number of years.  That we are willing to adjust our estimation of others, regardless of their age, is due to the fact that we realize that some people are exposed to life changing experiences at different times.  And some are exposed to more of them than others.

It's easy to dismiss the ideas of people we view as "kids".  And forgive me but I think of someone who is 20 years old, now, as a kid.  They just look _so_ young.  I remember what it was like being 20 years old and I hated being dismissed because I was a kid.

But they were right not to listen to much of what I had to say.  Because I was wrong.  Only I didn't know it and nobody could tell me otherwise.  I didn't have all the facts and, frequently, I didn't know the historical underpinnings of their beliefs.  The young tend to ignore history because it happened before we were born.

Another thing that used to drive me crackers was that my father would not trust me with some things because he said that I did not have good judgment.  My retort to him was how did he expect me to develop good judgment since he never let me exercise any.  We were both right.  I _didn't_ have good judgment but that was because I'd never been allowed to exercise my own judgment and learn from my mistakes.

Now, that's my experience.  It may or may not be like yours.  And, I agree with you that age discrimination stinks.

On the flip side of this is the fact that when I'm talking on gaming forums and I disagree with some 17 year old about something in a game and he sees that I'm 48, he immediately just thinks I'm too old for games and brushes me off.  You and I know that's stupid.

I will stand behind the statement, though, that your world view will change as you get older.  This is virtually inevitable because our bank of knowledge and experience grows as we get older.  And that _should_ lead to changes (however slight) in our world view.

I also think the way we deal with other people changes as we get older.  We learn better how to choose our battles.  We become better judges of character.  And we learn how to become more politic in our dealings with others.  That's just how it works.  It isn't the same with everyone.  But it happens to everyone.

Just don't take it personally and try to remember that we all went through the  same thing (and are still going through it -- my wife's grandmother calls us kids and I'm nearly 50).  And we are generally just using about the only thing we have to gauge the wisdom of someone who's 20 years old.  Also try to remember that by talking to others we change our estimation of their intelligence, knowledge and wisdom as time goes on.

When we say that your views will change as you get older just remember that we have the voice of experience.  Because it happened to us.  We didn't believe it would either.

[MONOLITH]

Dammit Farmboy. Look what you've done now.

You've got Zazoo pullling out words like 'ad hominem'.  :hmm:


 :cookie:






.

[farmboy]

:tongue:
I have to admit, of all the places this thread could have gone, I didn't expect it to go here.
And I do understand what Ronin and Para are saying.  I don't agree with them 100%, but I will acknowledge that I've got a lot to learn.  I just thought since I had to write the essay anyway, I'd share it and see what others would say about it.

[Ronin]

:tongue:
I have to admit, of all the places this thread could have gone, I didn't expect it to go here.
And I do understand what Ronin and Para are saying.  I don't agree with them 100%, but I will acknowledge that I've got a lot to learn.  I just thought since I had to write the essay anyway, I'd share it and see what others would say about it.

Farmboy, it's not about being right or wrong.  All I'm trying to say is that your opinions will probably change over time.  Some change a lot.  Some very little.    It's just the way things are.

[Zazoo]

Ronin, I think you're missing my point.
I understand why people feel that age is good way to judge the sophistication of a person's worldview. And I don't entirely disagree with the reasoning behind it.
However, I will comment that the passage of time alone is not a guaranteed source of wisdom. The young don't have a monopoly on cluelessness and inanity -- nor do the old have a monopoly on wisdom and sagacity.
I don't think I need to cite the wealth of historical examples that prove this point.

I don't deny the fact that our worldviews inevitably change with time.
Mine have certainly changed, and they will continue to change. That doesn't render everything I have to say "worthless". That's the mistake in reasoning that I'm addressing here.
I think we can all agree that life experience gives us the opportunity to gain wisdom that cannot be gained elsewhere. But this doesn't give anyone the justification to completely bypass the content of someone's opinion and insult them based on age alone.

It's just a simple matter of respect and maturity.
~Mike

[Reeper]

Just to throw this out there since we are on the topic of age and politics.

I think it would be interesting to divide elected officials into age brackets as well as population brackets. So with a state having a majority population of 20-30 year olds why not have that age group have representation in congress also?

Obviously its just an idea but lemme know what ya think about it.

[Ronin]

Ronin, I think you're missing my point.
I understand why people feel that age is good way to judge the sophistication of a person's worldview. And I don't entirely disagree with the reasoning behind it.
However, I will comment that the passage of time alone is not a guaranteed source of wisdom. The young don't have a monopoly on cluelessness and inanity -- nor do the old have a monopoly on wisdom and sagacity.
I don't think I need to cite the wealth of historical examples that prove this point.

I don't deny the fact that our worldviews inevitably change with time.
Mine have certainly changed, and they will continue to change. That doesn't render everything I have to say "worthless". That's the mistake in reasoning that I'm addressing here.
I think we can all agree that life experience gives us the opportunity to gain wisdom that cannot be gained elsewhere. But this doesn't give anyone the right to completely bypass the content of someone's opinion and insult their opinion based on age alone.

It's just a simple matter of respect and maturity.
~Mike

I agree with you, Mike.  I wish there was a quick and easy way to assess someone's level of "wisdom" other than by age.  But, unfortunately, age is about all we have.  And it's generally a poor indicator.

I have met some pretty sophisticated young people.  And I have met some pretty foolish (opposite of wise?) older people.  As with everything else, there's probably a bell curve for it with some well below the mark, most at the average or mean and some well above the mark.

[MONOLITH]

inanity....sagacity; this is getting good!