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Author Topic: Global Warming? They were scared of Global Cooling not too long ago...  (Read 6425 times)
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DaSmerg
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« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2007, 06:58:11 AM »

Quote from: Zazoo;29219
That's 25 billion tons (25,028 million tons). :wink:  

I agree though. Definitely needs a redesign. Too much information with very little organization to tie everything together.
~Mike


Probably makes perfect sense if you were in on the project :hmm:

I know from my days working in production...we had a bunch of new machinery brought in for some new jobs...some designed solely by engineers, most by a group of engineers with production peeps input.  The equipment built by the engineers when it went to the floor to be tested was pretty much completely unusable.  I can remember half a dozen engineers standing around showing off how easy it was to run off parts and not a one could get it to run anywhere near it's "theoretical" output.  Back to the drawing board it went Cheers
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Dr.Jeckyl
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« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2007, 08:51:10 AM »

that totally sounds like where Wilson and i work.

engineers: design a product, build the tooling for said product, release tooling and required materials for production, pat each other on the back for a job well done.

production workers: polish the enginers' shit and make it all work the way it's supposed to all the while telling the engineers how to make it right and getting ignored.
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« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2007, 07:34:15 PM »

Besides Carbon Dioxide, dont forget geothermal activity and warm underwater currents could be the true culprit in melting icebergs/poles.  Even if you shut down factories and automobiles that wont prevent polar cap degradation.


As i was watching TV the other day.  They made it seem like that the "truth" about global warming was being suppressed by the Bush administration.  Nonsense.  Im critical of Bush myself, but seriously..what did Clinton/Gore do about Global Warming during his administration?  acquire new contracts to replace non-emergency vehicles with battery/ethanol/water fueled vehicles at the state/federal level?  NO.  Both Republican and Democrats voted against the Kyoto Protocol.  99-0

alternative energy is the simple answer.  irregardless of political orientation this is too good of an idea to not focus on for various reasons.  No blogs, no rants, no gnashing of teeth, no polotics.  Just something that will make nearly everyone happy.
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« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2007, 11:57:07 PM »



Should be an interesting report.
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« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2007, 03:32:34 PM »

"very likely"=there not 110% sure:D
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« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2007, 01:12:26 AM »

Quote from: 110;29270
"very likely"=there not 110% sure:D


"The phrase "very likely" translates to a more than 90 percent certainty that global warming is caused by man's burning of fossil fuels."
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MONOLITH
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« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2007, 03:32:37 AM »

"Some scientists say the summary of the U.N. climate change report we told you about earlier distorts the actual scientific findings — because of a political agenda. Cybercast News Service cites MIT professor Richard Lindzen — who worked on the last U.N. climate report — as saying the summary is primarily the work of political appointees — not scientists.

Harvard University physicist Lubos Motl says that if an error is found in the summary — the technical report will be "adjusted" for consistency — a practice he calls "scientific misconduct."

And Scientist Christopher Landsea of the National Hurricane Center says he resigned from the U.N. panel because its statements to the media were "far outside current scientific understandings."
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Frozyn
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« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2007, 09:12:58 AM »

Global warming is not man made. That's the main thing they're lying about. We just make it happen much, much faster.
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« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2007, 04:10:14 PM »

It's McDonalds' fault. They keep feeding the cows of the world, which keep putting on weight, which causes everything on the planet used for mobility to work harder, which produces much more CO2.

Also, all those fatasses are weighing the planet down, causing our orbit to deteriorate.

So the answer is- make everyone who is obese lose a minimum of 40 pounds.
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Shrap. You've left us, but not without impacting our lives.
MONOLITH
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« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2007, 05:29:44 PM »

Here's why all of this is pretty much a waste of time for us.

Take Smerg and Myself.

He's going to find links from 'scientists' that agree with what he feels, and I'm going to find ones that say the opposite.

But unless we are knowledgable OURSELVES and can /have done our own research; Which we can not and are not; it's ridiculous to argue using someone else's evidence when we have no idea if that person knows what the hell he's talking about, OR what his personal agenda is.

Sitting here trying to say "but my guy isn't biased, he's irrefutable" is ridiculous as well.

There are democrat leaning 'scientists' who want to tax and destroy big oil, and there are those on the right who will say anything to stop them.

Not a single one of us here has the education or the resources to determine for OURSELVES the truth behind global warming. (except maybe Mike). cool



So, I'm just going to go play my 360 until it melts in the heat.  

:moon:




.
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« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2007, 06:54:58 PM »

i'll ask again then; why can't we just fix what COULD happen now by cleaning up?
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« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2007, 08:14:50 PM »

Too many people disagree on what that would be.

Too many special interests groups on BOTH sides of the partisan fence pulling in opposite directions.

And a whole lot of people lying, making shit up, or misinformed the whole way thru.

Kyoto is a good example. The US won't join, because it's too costly compared to what actual effect it may or may not have. Now the idiot French want to Tax the US over it, meanwhile China is far worse on the air environment than we are, and they're exempt from Kyoto? What the hell is that?
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BajaBravo
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« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2007, 08:25:40 PM »

Quote from: Frozyn;29294
Global warming is not man made. That's the main thing they're lying about. We just make it happen much, much faster.


Maybe there is some nuance I'm missing in what you're saying, but "warming" is an intrinsically relative term; time-span being implied. Semantics aside, I don't believe there is a practical difference between causing global warming and causing global warming to accelerate substantially.

[RANT]

In general, two points stick out for me: the political vs scientific aspect of the warming issue and the paradox created by the quest for absolute certainty.

The "Quest for Absolute Certainty" concept is something we examine on the Command and Staff course I'm taking right now. Although it's a military course, I think the concept is relevant here. The basic premise is that the risk posed by uncertainty has to be balanced against the risk that delaying a decision will render that decision irrelevant. A key principle is that some risks must be accepted, planned for and mitigated against rather than eliminated outright. Failure to accept uncertainty results in paralysis, which results in defeat.

From what I understand of this issue (I'm not a scientist), there is certainty that climate is changing. That's not a biggie, climate has always been changing. There is virtual certainty that climate is changing at an unusually fast rate. There is a high degree of certainty (90% sayeth this politically sensitive panel of scientists) that it's caused by mankind burning of fossil fuels. Certainty decreases as they start getting into predicting the specific consequences, but even cautious predictions are warning of dramatic effects.

Keep in mind that understanding the past has got to be a little easier than predicting the future regardless of what you're talking about. So certainty about the future is not absolute. Unless some of you are planning to transcend into a higher dimension, it never will be. Certainty about the past is higher, but ultimately limited by our abilities as well. 100% certainty in the context of this issue is literally impossible to achieve.

So what do we do? Waiting for 100% certainty will guarantee one thing: if what they are saying is true it will be far too late to actually deal with it. At what point exactly do we stop and say "n% is good enough for me, let's do something to save our asses!"?

To me, the degree of certainty right now makes me believe direct action to dramatically reduce fossil fuel is justified. Even if they are totally wrong on the science side, the "secondary" effects reducing our dependency on a finite energy source and reducing the air pollution in our urban centres have enough of a positive effect economically in the long run to justify the short-term economic challenges. But I digress.

Mixing science and politics is just about as fun as mixing science and religion but for this particular issue, neither can be ignored. Without science, we cannot determine whether the climate is actually changing, if it is, what the causes are, nor do with have any way to predict the consequences or how to avoid or mitigate them. As explained above, even with science, absolute certainty about these elements is virtually impossible.

You could have all the scientific certainty in the world but without political will, nothing actually gets done. It's politicians that hold the public purse strings, not scientists. Political will, at least in the Western World, is generated by those with an agenda subjecting the masses to endless, mostly nauseating, rhetoric and propaganda.

Manufacture a fake crisis or deny a real crisis as it suits; aggressively characterize anyone that doesn't support you as immoral, stupid, traitorous, biased and ironically, self-serving. It's the same story over and over again. Despite what anyone says, this pattern is not the exclusive domain of any particular political group; they ALL do it (or at least the ones that are successful do).

Our job is to try to shift through all the crap for the odd nugget of meaningful truth despite having the odds stacked against us and through the democratic process, try to influence an appropriate political decision. It sucks but what other alternatives do we have? Again, scientists don't make policy, politicians do.

It always amazes me the ease at which any given party is able to select completely disparate logic from one issue to the next. For example, consider: Is the production of massive amounts of "green-house" gases leading to catastrophic climate change? Versus: Does Saddam Hussian have sufficient stockpiles WMD to represent a catastrophic threat?

To me, the questions have many similarities. First, there is an inevitable degree of uncertainty in answering either question decisively. Second, there is a substantial degree of intolerance to the consequences of answering the question incorrectly. Third, depending on the answer, the resulting policy response is either a relatively massive undertaking or pretty much nothing at all; i.e. not likely to end up with a middle of the road solution.

By my way of thinking, a rational individual would approach each problem in a consistent fashion. Someone with a "conservative" (i.e. true meaning of the word) mindset would be cautious about taking any significant actions without reducing the uncertainty to as close to zero as possible. Someone with a more "liberal" (i.e. again, true sense of the word) mindset might be tolerant of a higher degree of uncertainty in favour of being proactive.

Yet the reality of the situation contradicts that. It seems to me that there is somewhat of a correlation between supporting a preemptive invasion of Iraq despite less than 100% certainty (about whether he had WMD and what the consequences of taking/not-taking action would be) and not supporting interventions to reduce green-house gas emissions without incontrovertible proof that a total disaster is imminent. The reverse also seems true.

So what's up? IMHO the political groups involved in the issue are motivated by self-interest dominantly. The so-called "arguments" for or against are strictly rationalizations meant to persuade. They have little or nothing to do with why they have taken that position, so logical consistency is irrelevant. The political "debate" is largely between those that make lots of money producing green-house gases and those that see the issue simply as an opportunity to acquire political power. The fact they we may or may not be on the verge of wiping ourselves out is, at best, a secondary consideration.

There really isn't that much of a scientific debate on the broader questions. Granted, the devil is in the details. I think it's important to remember that although impartiality is key in science, scientists are human beings just like the rest of us and aren't totally immune to bias and influence. That being said, when the majority of the scientific community is standing up and saying they are 90% certain we have a problem, and that problem appears to lead to catastrophic consequences, I think it's too risky to just dismiss them.

[/RANT]

Just my $0.02. cool
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MONOLITH
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« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2007, 08:46:01 PM »

Quote from: BajaBravo;29314

The "Quest for Absolute Certainty" concept is something we examine on the Command and Staff course I'm taking right now. Although it's a military course, I think the concept is relevant here. The basic premise is that the risk posed by uncertainty has to be balanced against the risk that delaying a decision will render that decision irrelevant. A key principle is that some risks must be accepted, planned for and mitigated against rather than eliminated outright. Failure to accept uncertainty results in paralysis, which results in defeat.



Excellent stuff Thom.   :cookie:

Now if I had only pondered the uncertainty of marriage just a little longer.


Quote from: BajaBravo;29314

By my way of thinking, a rational individual would approach each problem in a consistent fashion.

It seems to me that there is somewhat of a correlation between supporting a preemptive invasion of Iraq  and not supporting interventions to reduce green-house gas emissions



If you pay attention as you read, it can be easily interpreted as, those that supported the war but resist global warming are irrational,

And the 'correlation' is Hypocrisy.


Ouch, That hurts my friend.



Just teasin'.  Cheers   :yup:



.
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Zazoo
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« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2007, 08:50:45 PM »

Quote from: BajaBravo;29314
Just my $0.02. cool


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MONOLITH
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« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2007, 09:51:38 PM »

interesting side note..


http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/03/070203050635.ipansumv.html



Someone explain this too me. How is the per-capita relevent, when your entire country as a whole is the real affecting body?





.
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BajaBravo
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« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2007, 10:40:48 PM »

Quote from: MONOLITH;29315
If you pay attention as you read, it can be easily interpreted as, those that supported the war but resist global warming are irrational,

And the 'correlation' is Hypocrisy.


I should emphasize the opposite positions also seems to correlate -  those groups that opposed the Invasion of Iraq, arguing that we didn't have enough evidence of WMD and we didn't know exactly how it would play out don't seem to be as worried that there isn't 100% certainty on the climate issue and that we have even less certainty on what effects (postive/negative, climate-wise/economically) specific interventions might have. It's a double-edge sword.

Besides, we are all irrational and hypocritical. Cheers
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« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2007, 12:01:58 AM »

-53 degrees celsius with the windchill this morning. i say bring on Global Warming cheesy
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« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2007, 02:47:16 AM »

Quote from: BajaBravo;29320
I should emphasize the opposite positions also seems to correlate



Actually, you did say that, and I overlooked it.

I was pidgeon-holing you again. My bad.       cool
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« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2007, 09:29:02 PM »

I found this to be interesting.  I'd never heard of a theory that involved cloud cover generation by cosmic rays before.  This guy has apparently been working on this for some years.  I don't know if his theory has any scientific merit.

I read the Crichton book mentioned in the article.  I recognized his central premise (that science has become highly politicized to its detriment) immediately and I believe that that's true.  But the book is fiction, so I don't ascribe any weight to it other than its entertainment value (and its not his best work -- that's probably still "The Andromeda Strain").

The best fiction has, at its core, a small seed of fact and builds a fictional framework from there.  I think Micheal Crichton is very good at that.  An English professor friend of mine calls Crichton's work "faction" because he infuses so many actual facts into his fictional work.  [Often] it's easy to forget that the work is indeed fiction.  Its also [sometimes] difficult to tell where the facts stop and the fiction begins.

Anyway, back to the original subject.  I was amazed that in the comments section how [some] of those comments had nothing to say about the actual theory as expressed.

The very first one mentioned the "Sun moving closer to the Earth".  This is not what Solar variability means.  It's his interpretation (and it's wrong as well as scary).  Then he launches into a harangue about the Michael Crichton book which is mentioned in the article but is not the basis for the theory that the article is about.

In this case, it seems the article about the theory is what people really want to talk about.  I would like to read more about this guy's theory.  I guess I'll have to find it myself though.  There doesn't appear to be any links to the actual thesis on that page (or the site).  I found this
 but it's just another Times article about the same thing.  And still no link to the actual thesis.

But Google did yield
of interest.  I don't understand the mechanics of this or his theory, yet.  But it's something I've not heard before even though it's been around for a while.  And as an aside, it does make me wonder why I've not heard about this theory since its been around for several years.  Surely it's not because of bias in the reporting on "global warming"... :roll:
 
Note, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.  You are the only one who can change your mind.  But I'd like to think that everyone here makes up his mind based on information and not preconceived notions.  More information can't hurt in that regard.
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