Germany trying to ban a religion (again)

[Zazoo]

Old time Platooners. Go to 3:01 in the fourth video and pause it until you see something.

LOL! Sulamar lives!

~Mike

[Lazerblade]

Well put. One question lingers though- how can a group call itself a "religion" with no actual religious "entity" or spiritual ascension? Aren't witches' covens considered cults because they don't actually worship an entity?

I'm pretty sure a cult wouldn't get the same tax exemption as a religion. Perhaps Germany should simply announce Scientology as a cult, therefore removing the possibility of tax exemption, and thereby pissing off enough of the following to prevent any long-term stay.

[Zazoo]

I have to give L. Ron Hubbard credit.
The guy repackages elements of philisophical pragmatism, Maslow's hierarchy, and Buddhism into a touchy-feely new-age doublespeak package and suddenly we have a new religion.
Granted, his movement had some help from a few high-profile celebrities, but still that takes something special.

As kooky as I think Scientology is, I welcome it. It raises some really important questions about the nature of religion. And I don't think people can dismiss it as casually as they would like -- a lot of the arguments made against Scientology work surprisingly well against many other (long established) religious faiths.
~Mike

[farmboy]

The only thing that bothers me about it is their aggressive stance on anyone who questions them.  I mean, read this.

NEVER agree to an investigation of Scientology.  ONLY agree to an investigation of the attackers.
...
This is correct procedure:
(1)  Spot who is attacking us.
(2)  Start Investigating them promptly for FELONIES or worse using our own professionals, not outside agencies.
(3)  Double curve our reply by saying we welcome an investigation of them.
(4)  Start feeding lurid, blood, sex, crime actual evidence on the attackers to the press.
Don't ever tamely submit to an investigation of us.  Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way.
You can get "reasonable about it" and lose.  Sure we break no laws.  Sure we have nothing to hide.  BUT attackers are simply an anti-Scientology propaganda agency so far as we are concerned.  They have proven they have no facts and will only lie no matter what they discover.  So BANISH off ideas that any fair hearing is intended and start our attack with their [illegible word].  Never wait.  Never talk about us - only them.  Use their blood, sex, crime to get headlines.  Don't use us.

So anyone who asks questions is explicitly marked and attacked?  That isn't religion, that's an infringement on freedom of speech.
Edit: that and their "war on psychiatry."  Its a sick irony that a "religion" that forces its members to divulge all secrets to the church then accuses psychiatrists of trying to take advantage of people.

[DaSmerg]

I was under the impression that the German goverment and Scientology have had nothing but an adversarial relationship since the beginning.  These latest moves wouldn't be too suprising under this assumption.

While I myself feel that freedom of belief is one of those fundamental rights of all of us human beings but this freedom does have societal limitations. For those who live in the German society, it seems that the limitations are extreme when it comes to Scientology.

That's where IMHO we start to cross into another of those fundamental rights of all of us human beings I believe we have...that local societies make the rules and laws to govern their people, again with limitations though.

While I don't agree that Scientology represents such a grave danger that it should be outlawed and it's membership vigoursly prosecuted, I do believe that Germans have the right to make up their own minds about such things and that those who truly believe will have to accomodate the 'will of the people'.

'Nother nickle.

[Da Fish]

As far as removal of individual freedoms go, I understand where those defending the right to those freedoms are coming from.

However I, wasn't aware of the status of Scientology casting doubt on the Holocaust. Such a scripture actually angers me as too how people can question such a blatant process of calculated genocide. However I'm aware of how the Germans currently don't teach their children much about ww2. Thus could such a law be an attempt to keep the origins of ww2 swept under the carpet?

The other side of the coin is that Austria has a law banning any material casting doubt on the holocaust. Surely this law also borders on those for the thought police.

[SilentEdge]

However I, wasn't aware of the status of Scientology casting doubt on the Holocaust.

From my understanding they don't so much "cast doubt" about the existence of the holocaust so much as they do its purpose. The hint I was getting from the video is that "Psychology is an evil Nazi conspiracy which began during the holocaust and lives on today."

As far as Germans being informed or not about the holocaust, you won't find a group more sensitive about what occurred than the Germans. In a way I believe that, that extremely short period in German history has diminished German national pride below the point required for a healthy nation. (All IMHO though)

More later.

[farmboy]

Interesting thought, TSE.  A few years ago, we had a foreign exchange student at my high school.  He was slightly surprised the first soccer game he played in because we listened to the national anthem before kick off.  I believe he said something to the effect of "if someone did this in germany, people would get really suspicious of them."  so, just kind of going along with that...

[Da Fish]

I work with a German (admittedly he is a doctor and blatantly educated to a certain level!), and i had to explain to him about the poppy appeal that is run in the U.K. to coincide with our remembrance day. He wondered why we still celebrate (wrong word, but its the best I can think off in this hung over state) such a day. I told him its not only about those who died in ww1 and ww2, but also about those who have been killed more recently. the poppy appeal help get money to assist those who have been wounded and the loved ones of those who have been killed.

The next day he was wearing a poppy.
------
The problem, IMO, is that you cant sweep history under the carpet, but (in theory), you can should be able to use it to learn from past mistakes. I don't feel the current German method is the best for the long term, no matter how painful (in terms of national pride) the short term will be!