Caspar the Ghostly friend...

[Ronin]

This post is to introduce you guys to Caspar.  A Ghost Recon map viewer. (Caspar the friendly Ghost... )  Yeah, it's silly.  But I don't care.  I'm just happy it's finally working.  Many thanks to Mike Schell for his help in figuring out much of the GR map data.

Right now the program is only displaying the room polygons and the boundary meshes.  For some reason, on some levels, it does not appear to be showing all the rooms (like Red Square).  I don't know why.  I'm still not sure I'm processing everything.

Anyway the basic viewer is done.  It still crashes on a fair number of the levels.  But I'm sure that's just because there are some things in the data that I'm not handling, yet.  I'll work through those things with the map parser program and figure those out.  Any that work with the parser but not with the viewer will be due to bugs/omissions in the viewer code.

Here's a (very small) taste of what I'm seeing with the viewer so far.  This is from the training map from original Ghost Recon.


I'm working on getting it to load the textures for the level right, now.  I should have that working soon.  After that, it's just adding features to be able to turn the display of various things in the level on and off so I can see what those thing are and verify that I have interpreted the data correctly.

[BajaBravo]

Cool.

[YHWH]

Can it export map data as a 3ds max format?

[Ronin]

The purpose of this program is to be aid in making sure that I can interpret all the data in a Ghost Recon map correctly.  After I'm sure I've identified all the data in the map, I can then proceed to making a map importer and exporter for a 3D editing program that is MUCH cheaper than Max like MilkShape 3D.  The price of Max for most of us is just ridiculously high.

That you can see the map is neat.  But that's not really the main purpose of this program.  It's to use as an analytical tool for figuring out the rest of the OGR map data.

I'm going to try for Milkshape 3D first.  That program may not be able to do the job.  But that's what I'm going to try for first.  You have to have the SDK to write importers/exporters for 3D editors.  I have the one for MilkShape (as well as MilkShape itself).  To write an importer/exporter for any editor would require access to the SDK.  That leaves out all the "big" 3D editors for me.

I suppose it would be possible to export the map as an OBJ or 3DS file.  The Max format is too complicated and I have seen no published spec for it.  The 3DS format is pretty complicated in itself with all the "chunk" types.  A DXF format might be a better alternative.  I think the 3DS format can be either text or binary.  The text version of 3DS might be the better choice, I think.

[Lazerblade]

What about .LWO importing/exporting? I'm a huge fan of Lightwave and there are several varying levels of cost for that program. A student can pick up a copy for under $400 I'm sure. I think our teacher said we could buy it online from a student supply store, using our student identification or whatever, for around $200, or maybe it was $300, I forget. I just use the computers at the school for now. I'm looking into purchasing a copy for myself when I graduate though.

[Ronin]

Well, the LightWave SDK is freely available for download (unlike the SDKs for Max or Maya).  I haven't really looked at it, but I have downloaded it.

Lightwave for those of us who aren't in school is between $500 and $900 depending on whom you buy it from (I've only found two retailers online).  That's considerably cheaper than Max and I know LightWave is quite capable as a 3D editor.

I was shooting for something really inexpensive, though, like MilkShape.  But if MilkShape doesn't have the ability to edit maps like this, then we'll have to choose a different editor or (shudder) write one.

For most gamers, $500 is still well out of their reach to be able to make new maps.  And there's still a LOT of work to do, yet. The importer/exporter is good ways off.  So the people who would use it should talk about what editor would be most practical.

[Zazoo]

What about ?
Free and open-source.

~Mike

[Ronin]

What about ?
Free and open-source.

~Mike

I guess Blender is a good candidate.  I thought it was completely a NURBS editor, though. I'll download it and check it out.

I also downloaded the free trial to LightWave 3D.  I'm pretty sure it can do what we want.  But the price is still a bit steep.  It's about the same price as XSI, I think.  I don't know of the SDK for XSI is readily available, either.

I did read that Blender even has a built-in 3D engine.  That might a little overkill for what we want.  But at least it's free.  And fairly powerful from what I've read so far.

[SkyJockey]

you ought to think about posting this over at ghostrecon.net as well.  GR Modding is still going pretty strong over there.

[farmboy]

for 3d modelers, i use gmax.  but i've never really tried anything else, and i recall that when discreet (the makers of 3ds max and gmax) got bought out by autodesk, autodesk pulled gmax so people would be forced to buy 3ds.  thought id throw that out, though.  i'm definitely phsyched for this.  i always wanted to mod, but gave up pretty quickly when i realized you needed max to do anything 3d.

[Lazerblade]

Max and Lightwave are relatively easy to use, but both expensive. What about Maya PLE? They still have that right? And it's free? And it's powerful? I'd say go with Blender, but I've looked at that and it looks pretty complex, as in steep learning curve. Maybe I just didn't give it enough time. I'd say someone toss a list of all modelers capable of this sort of geometry and from there use a process of elimination based on price and power to narrow it down to 3 or 4 free and 3 or 4 relatively cheap options.

[Ronin]

GMax is pretty much out of the running.  It can import several types of files, but unless you've got the dev kit (MUCHO BUCKS!!) it can't write anything except gmax files.  There are a couple of exporters but those won't write GR maps.

I've done a quick reccy of Blender.  Yes, it looks pretty complicated.  But then, so does Max.

Here are some criteria for deciding which 3D editor to use.

1. The editor has to be cheap enough (or free) to be available to anyone who is serious about wanting to make GR maps.

2. The editor has to have an SDK available that will allow importers, exporters, and new dialog boxes for supporting data to be written.

3. The editor has to be freely available and not be an extra cost item.

4. The editor has to be powerful enough to support large numbers of vertices (over 50,000) and polygons in multiple groupings with group naming.

5. The editor has to be able to tag groups and be able to extract rotations, translations and scaling.

Maya PLE fits some of the above.  But the SDK is only available to purchasers of Maya Complete or above.  You cannot get the SDK without buying Maya.

Please make more suggestions, though.  Blender seems to be top of the list followed closely by MilkShape 3D.  I have written other plug-ins for MilkShape 3D (for Soldiers Heroes of World War II).  So I'm somewhat familiar with its capabilities.  MilkShape is a fairly simple program.  And maybe that's all we need.  Max is tremendous overkill for just making GR maps, IMHO.

I'm not a member over at GhostRecon.net.  I think I was at one time but I'm not sure of that.  But I have no idea what my handle would have been if I was.  I'll try popping in over there to see if anyone has any suggestions over there, too.

[Ronin]

I'm still looking at the map objects (ObjectList) section trying to figure the storage for each of the object types.  I've identified three different ones so far. There are probably others.

Once I get that figured out, I can display the map objects properly instead of having them clustered at the origin of the map.  Then I can get the textures loading and texture the map and the objects.

I was working on both things at the same time.  But if you try to chase two rabbits at once, you won't catch either of them.  So I'm focusing on the map objects for now.  The textures will make the stuff look nice.  But it's more important to get the geometry to display correctly.

Thanks for the feedback so far!

[BOBK]

You are a good man "Ronin", thanks for coming back from the dead.

[Reeper]

Ronin,
How are displaying the 3d image with VB? Any links on tutorials you found useful for doing that?

[Ronin]

@Bob, thanks!

Well, I've been whacking away at the data in the ObjectList.  One type (type 52) is where the forest/plant data is stored.  It's a compound object with some oddities.  I've figured out a lot of it (matrices and vertices as well as names of the materials/textures).  But there is some enclosing structure that I haven't figured out, yet.  Some of that data looks kind of weird.  The data doesn't appear to be geometry because the values are so large.  And those values repeat a lot then go the same value in negative numbers.

I've found what I think is an internal structure that defines collections of items.  But the data around it is still unintelligible.  And I can't tell how the GR engine can tell when that data should start up again.  I'm sure the data for that is there but I haven't found it, yet.  Once I figure out that external structure I can use that data, I think. I've pretty much got the internal structures figured out since it's pretty simple.  Although there is data in there that I haven't a clue what it's for.

Those boundary meshes at the end of the room data in the GeometryList are what keeps you from going into certain areas of the map and prevents you from walking through some of the geometry on the map since those things aren't actual objects.

I'm going to give the objects a breather for a couple of days and come back to it with a fresh eye.  I might notice something then that I missed before and figure it out.

In the mean time, I'm going to display the room data, the occluders, the transition lines (as just lines), the lights and the portals.  Then I'll go back to the ObjectList data.  If that doesn't pop out at me within a couple of days, I'll put the texturing in place then come back to it.  I will figure it out.  But it may take some time.  In the mean time, there's plenty more left to figure out.

I am wondering if some parts of the map data may be "trash" data.  There certainly is some trash data in some of the strings.  I'm thinking that in some structures there may be data that is not used and was never initialized.  So it's "trash" data that is meaningless but is non-zero.

I'm still working on it.  But I'm going to take this afternoon off and go work in my wood shop for a while.

[Ronin]

Made a little more progress today.  I figured out where the location of the light is stored in the lights.  So I can show the light and color locations on the map.  I thought that might be useful somehow.  Maybe not.  It's there, though.

I've got the portals displaying, too.  They are in red.  The boundary/collision meshes are in green.  The lights display in the color the light is set to in the lighting tool.

I've been reading the map making guide from RSE today.  It give information on what might be stored in the ObjectList.  The animations for those objects are stored in them (keyframes, I think).  The animations can only be "linear". There are also helper points set in the object.  So I'll look for those when I find something with an animation in it.  That downed Osprey is a good candidate.

I took another screenshot with the meshes, portals and lights being displayed.  The lights are just little colored squares right now.  I'll probably create a little (simple) model for each light type and display them that way eventually.

Here's the Airfield map. I still haven't turned on the texturing, yet.  But I'll probably do that tomorrow.


This viewer is paying off by doing what I wanted to do with it.  And that's figuring out some of the data that I haven't figured out, yet.  I figured out what data in the lights was the light position using the tool.

I also added the ablility to view rooms by level (all, 1 or 2), a single room or all rooms.  So far, that hasn't been all that useful, but viewing it by level is kind of cool (you can see outside or inside rooms by themselves).

[YHWH]

looks like you are doing magic!
I hope you can expand its capability to handle maps of Rogue Spear, Sum of All Fears, or even Lockdown someday.

[Ronin]

Ronin,
How are displaying the 3d image with VB? Any links on tutorials you found useful for doing that?

Sorry, Reeper, I missed this earlier.

I use C++, not VB.  I don't have VB and haven't written anything in basic since I used CBasic back in 1988.

The imaging is done in OpenGL. I've been using that for about 9 years.  I like it much more than Direct3D.  It's also portable to other OS's whereas Direct3D is Winders only.

[Ronin]

looks like you are doing magic!
I hope you can expand its capability to handle maps of Rogue Spear, Sum of All Fears, or even Lockdown someday.

The maps (but not the missions) from Sum of All Fears will work in Ghost Recon already.  You can create missions in Igor on them for GR and also use them for the firefight and recon modes.

I haven't looked at Rogue Spear maps.  I think Mike said they're nearly the same.  I'll probably look into those, too.

I'm not familiar with Lockdown at all except for playing the demo.  It was just too "arcadish" (if that's a word) to be thought of as Rainbow Six, really so I've never paid much attention to it.  I don't think the maps would be anything like this format, though.  So I doubt I would cover them.

Here's the TVStation map from SOAF: