Serious ISSUE

[FWT_Papa6]

Are you sure StarForce asks permission?  

Or are you thinking about that 'updater' thing we talked about back then?

I thought half the problem with StarForce was it doesn't ask you. If it does have a 'install this or you cannot play', then half of the anti-starforce argument just went out the window...

No I know that lockdown has starforce...why I'll NEVER know. but none the less, Splintercell Chaos theory's EULA doesn't say anything about starforce

[MONOLITH]

I'm not sure which part of that quote you're addressing papa.

[IRONHEAD]

I have the PC version of lock down and I didn't even know STARFORCE was on my PC until I tried to play the game, then It popped up. I think the piracy thing is being taken way to seriously. It's not really about you copying stuff it's really about that little bit of money the greedy companies wont get. I mean seriously if piracy was such a big fat issue then why continue to even make games or music. Obviously the risk is worth it to them. They should not install stuff without our knowelege and force us to agree to thier terms. You can't install the game unless you agree. Why even ask us, LOL. I think if you buy something,..... its yours. I mean I f I let a friend install my copy of R64L on his computer after I'm done playing it what does it matter? I never register anything anyway. I dont think you should have to agree to a prenup for a damn game.

[MONOLITH]

I mean If I let a friend install my copy of R64L on his computer after I'm done playing it what does it matter?

You may want to think that through a bit more, because it matters alot.

Your scenario, at a minimum, would reduce any company's game revenue in half.

It's also not so much a matter of a companies 'greed'. The way games have developed today, it takes teams and teams of people a year of salary and benefits to get a game to the point of going gold. Then there's marketing, advertising, packaging, production, after release support/patches.

Do some companies put out an inferior product, or have lousy support for it? Sure, but I wouldn't necessarily label that as greed.

All of this is besides the point that any company who creates a product (even a music band) has a right to create whatever profits they can from that product. No where does it say that anyone owes us 'shareware'.

It's also not our right to determine how much revenue a company should be allowed to derive from a game they produce.

We can certainly demand quality in both product and support; and if we don't get it, take our business elsewhere. But to say we should have the right to 'take that little bit of profit away', or 'piracy, who cares', is a bit too far in the other direction, imo.

For the entertainment value I get from a game, and for the length of time it lasts, I'm more than happy to pay what games cost. Try comparing that same $49 to going to the movies. It lasts only 2 hours, and with popcorn and soda costs the same.

Keep in mind that some of the money from a 'winner' game, goes to pay for research and development spent on new games, as well as recoving some funds for the games that flopped.

Gaming companies are a business. Businesses have a right to be profitable. And if it allows them to keep running, and keep producing more products that I want, I'm all for supporting them.

Consumers don't have the right to say "aw, who cares about a little profit, I should be able to give their product away". I'm sure if you were producing a product for a profit, you might see that a little more clearly.

Also, please don't misunderstand my intent, I'm not trying belittle your post or start an argument, I'm just trying to present the other side of that point. I run a business, and I am painfully aware of the effects it would have on me if people started giving my product away. Piracy has a huge detrimental effect on all industries, and on the good guys who pay for those products. I'm affected by piracy, simply by the fact that this thread exists because of it. I have to deal with StarForce and other crap because of piracy. But to say "I should be able to give it away, what does it matter", certainly isn't the answer.


From an old article.....

"Developers suffer greatly from piracy. The combined amount of lost revenue from different types of piracy totals in the billions every year. Developers use part of their revenue for research and development for future versions. If there isn't money to sustain R&D, then the developers won't be able to hire new employees. "There were 130,000 jobs lost due to software piracy in the U.S. alone in 1996" (BSA).

Legitimate consumers also feel the effects of piracy. They pay higher prices for the product. They also miss out on new versions of software due to companies going out of business.


"Worldwide losses due to software piracy were a staggering $12.2 billion in 1999" (SPA). "In 1997, the worldwide estimate of losses [due to piracy] was approximately $5 billion" (RIAA). "Worldwide piracy is estimated to have cost the U.S. entertainment software industry $3.2 billion in 1998" (IDSA). "

[sithdemon]

Star force dosen't stop you from giving your friend your game. My copy of splinter cell has seen a few different computers. I'm not exactly sure if thats what you were saying Ironhead, but I just wanted to make that clarification.

[Lazerblade]

Mono, your argument is a valid one. I won't deny that piracy is having a huge impact on the entertainment industry. From PC games to theatrical releases, people are spending time and money to "steal" from the industry. Piracy is certainly a significant issue, and one that should be addressed.

However...

Despite efforts made by the entertainment industry, piracy is still occuring. The reduction in piracy due to new methods of copy protection simply hasn't been enough. Determination will find a way to have what one cannot afford. Obviously since the numbers from your quote are increasing instead of decreasing, when anti-piracy measures became more prevalent, then how can one say that the anti-piracy campaign is actually working? The move from multi-CD to DVD games, and from standard DVD to dual-layer or high-capacity DVD hasn't slowed the replication of movies or games either. The "back-up" copy methods are actually becoming more public now, whereas 5 years ago most of the pirating going on was pretty much underground.

So how can piracy be reduced? And will reducing piracy actually increase sales figures for the gaming undustry?

I'd say the only way to reduce piracy is to force people to register their games online before they can play them. But even that method isn't bullet-proof since most high-end applications use that method already, and we all know someone who has Photoshop, 3D Studio Max, or a similar product that they didn't pay for. The honor system wouldn't work any better, but for all the money these companies put into copy protection, and the fact that when someone wants something badly enough they will find a way to get it even if they can't afford legal channels, they may be better off reducing that overhead cost- and at the same time avoiding legal fees- by ditching such extreme measures as Starforce. I think I may have had a previous CDRW drive broken by that program, when I tried making a backup copy of RvS because I didn't want my original playdisc to get damaged. Funny thing too, I ended up losing my playdisc and had to buy a second copy.

As for reducing the income a company gets from any given title by sharing games with friends- that's bullshit and you know it. Word of mouth and exposure are the two biggest marketing tools- free tools- that software companies rely on for sales. A game that you purchase, play, defeat, and give away to a friend who would otherwise never play that game gives that company exposure to a section of the market they might not be selling to. Especially when considering how many adults over the age of 30 that now play video games. I've seen and played a few games that I would never have even looked at, and because of that I've purchased games from those companies. An example of this would be Clancy titles. A friend of mine copied Rogue Spear for me. I installed and played the game for over a year, forming a clan. Our clan moved on to GR, and ultimately we all owned each of the expansions for that. We went from GR to RvS, with every member in the clan purchasing not just RvS but also Athena. We also took in more members during each of the game phases we went through, thereby increasing sales of Clancy titles (theoretically) by a significant amount. Through poor execution of development or whatever, Lockdown- which was previously on our list of wanted games- was bypassed due to word of mouth and limited exposure by a few members of our clan. We now anticipate GR:AW. Due to length of playtime, poor support, and other various issues, we pretty much stopped playing RvS. Perhaps if UBI had spent that extra money on development instead of anti-piracy, Lochdown would have been received better by the community.

I'm not against copy protection. I'm against companies using copy protection as a means of spying, hindering performance, or damaging my hardware. I'll gladly purchase a game worth its pricetag- perhaps that's what the software industry needs to focus on. Give us games worth buying and you'll see profits increase. Keep giving us garbage and eventually you won't have to worry about piracy- nobody will want to play your games.

[MONOLITH]

I'm not against copy protection. I'm against companies using copy protection as a means of spying, hindering performance, or damaging my hardware. I'll gladly purchase a game worth its pricetag.

I agree completely. That's in my post.

As for reducing the income a company gets from any given title by sharing games with friends- that's bullshit and you know it.

No it's not bullshit. If a friend of mine burns me a copy of 3Dmax and gives it to me, that company just lost out on the cash I would have paid to buy it, yes?

You know what happens next? I turn around and burn a copy for you. The chain reaction of lost sales is geometrically expanding and devastating to a company's profits for that product.

To say that pirating software leads to greater sales through "exposure", is the bullshit.
That's what demos are for.
That's what advertising is for.
That's what internet gaming communities are for.

Companies don't need to suffer through theft in order to expand their markets.

The high cost of piracy and lost revenue far outweighs the benefits of the few extra sales by someone who recieved illegally obtained property 'spreading the word'.

And let's not forget how all the good guys are paying higher prices for games, to make up for the Robin Hoods that think piracy is doing the company a good deed.

Anywho, like I said, we fully agree about Starforce. I'm all for copyright protection, but sneaky, hardware damaging programs are over the line.

[IRONHEAD]

Anywho, like I said, we fully agree about Starforce. I'm all for copyright protection, but sneaky, hardware damaging programs are over the line.

Thats mainly was I was mad about. I agree to copy protection too but for them to say I cant sell my copy to friend so he can use it is ludacris. Also they shouldn't put stuff on our systems that is damaging. I have thought of a way that they can copy protect thier games. I think if they make the actual CD a read only component. Then have the actual game installed on a server so the CD will act like a movie ticket and you get in and play the game that is installed on thier server and save your tiny 2mb profile on thier server. This way there are no actual files on the CD to be copied just an access key to the server that is encrypted both with video and text files that was already pre-determined before it was shipped so no one can make a key gen for it. On a side note I dod not agree paying 4,000 for max. Yeah sure you can make money off of but damn I don't have 4 grand laying around. I paid 375 dollars for CorelCRAW 12.0 and I have made money from it making t-shirt logo designs. They highest I would pay though is about 1,000 dollars. I guess I'll just have to stick to the demos, LOL.

[Lazerblade]

Mono, I wasn't saying that pirating a copy for a friend was OK. I was saying that borrowing a game from a friend once he's done playing it is fine and in no way should be considered "lost" income. People swap, share, and lend/borrow console games all the time. What I'm saying is that to prevent such sharing would be shooting devs in the foot and shouldn't be considered unlawful. A friend of mine that I work with loaned me BF2, which he wasn't really playing and which I enjoyed very much. Debating on buying it, depending on how GR:AW is recieved by the community.

[MONOLITH]

People swap, share, and lend/borrow console games all the time.

I can somewhat agree with that. A little bit of sharing, is not the same as the 'full on' piracy that this thread is actually addressing. But StarForce isn't really there to stop you from lending a game to a buddy; it's there to stop 10,000 copies from ending up on the chinese black market.

I guess you and I are discussing two slightly different angles of the issue.

[farmboy]

Mono, I wasn't saying that pirating a copy for a friend was OK. I was saying that borrowing a game from a friend once he's done playing it is fine and in no way should be considered "lost" income. People swap, share, and lend/borrow console games all the time. What I'm saying is that to prevent such sharing would be shooting devs in the foot and shouldn't be considered unlawful. A friend of mine that I work with loaned me BF2, which he wasn't really playing and which I enjoyed very much. Debating on buying it, depending on how GR:AW is recieved by the community.

It won't block game sharing, on two conditions:  you have to uninstall the game from the first person's computer and use the original disk for the 2nd installation.  Its all in your standard EULA.

[IRONHEAD]

Why would anyone buy pirated software anyway? I mean it's not the same at all. The guy who stole it probabaly implanted viruses or other harmful stuff.

[Dimz]

just as further info about starforce , it also collects data from your website visits ( or leylogs is a heinous possiblility ) , and downloads contextual advertising related to your browsing habits . splinter cell : chaos theory players have finished the solo mode campaign , then come back to finish it again , and seen different billboards / ads in the game , and we then realised it is monitoring our habits and downloading new advertisements to catch our attention to products , whether its blatant to the use , or not realized that it wasnt the same advert before .

so just a heads up for anyone whos real serious about not allowing vunerabilities onto their pc , there is a whole starforce-protected game boycott scene goin on , mainly in the underground scene , and some of the general crack places where its completely legal and moral to use a fixed game executeable or mini-image to run a backup copy of your legally purchased software .

[MONOLITH]

just as further info about starforce , it also collects data from your website visits ( or leylogs is a heinous possiblility ) , and downloads contextual advertising related to your browsing habits . splinter cell : chaos theory players have finished the solo mode campaign , then come back to finish it again , and seen different billboards / ads in the game , and we then realised it is monitoring our habits and downloading new advertisements to catch our attention to products , whether its blatant to the use , or not realized that it wasnt the same advert before .

That's just plain ugly.

Has anyone verified that the game doesn't just have multiple random graphics in it, and that it's actually a StarForce related act?

[FWT_Papa6]

the issue is that copy protection is going from the disc to the Pc and inthis case I will testify to the fact that starforce doesn't ask for my permission to install and just forces it onto my harddrive.

1)SONY/BMG just settled a massive lawsuit brought on by the fact that they installed rootkits without user knowledge. Starforce also installs the drivers without the users knowledge.

So there's a HUGE parallel. UBISOFT with blood brothers, splintercell chaos theory and now coming with Ghost Recon advanced warfighter. UBISOFT is just a liable as the starforce creator.

UBISOFT bones everything anyhow. I wouldn't buy R6 lockdown if you gave me the money. they screwed up that series beyond help

[sithdemon]

I'll agree on the R6 for the most part, however much like EA haters, you keep forgeting that they do put out good games, SC3 being probably on the top of that list, and giving smaller devs like Crytek a chance to prove them selves at a world level. Companies like people make mistakes, starforce is a mistake over all, but for now a necessary evil to combat piracy at some level, cause the better the game, the more people want it, ASAP, and if they can't afford it then they pirate it, they love it, play it, and some eventually pay, some don't and then also bitch about a series dying.

[Lazerblade]

If that's true about the game content changing due to browsing habit, that might not be Starforce. Doesn't SWAT4 have that issue where adverts are downloaded and displayed ingame? I forget what the program/spyware thing is called, but it's something like Massive GameContent or something. Someone even saw an upcoming movie poster, announced AFTER SWAT was released, in one of the SWAT levels. I'd say that's proof enough.

[FWT_Papa6]

If that's the case look at this, The rootkits that were installed from the SONY/BMG CD's even contacted SONY/BMG when you played the CD. Get that..

"The CD got in contact with SONY/BMG when you played the CD" This is intrusive malware"

Starforce/UBISOFT are doing the exact same thing!, But they are , by what I'm hearing pushing crap ads through my PC via this starforce driver...

[DaSmerg]

Ugh, with all this spooky Starforce talk.  Like I needed another reason to not like UBI.

Add another to the list of any software that I choose to buy, installing something on my machine that I don't know about or authorize, most especially when it could end up harming my machine or parts of it.  

Mono I like your post above with the quote from the article.  While I agree with the principle of what you are saying there is something that is missing.  Several game companies continue to spend millions on copyright protection of software to keep alive a simply outdated business model of boxes on store shelves.  Digital delivery for the PC gamer is simply a better choice, especially when you start factoring in bit-torrent technology.

The other issue is how much money spent on copyright protection is too much before it's realized that either it's money wasted or that a fundamental change in how all our computers work is needed?  I understand that copyright protection is still pretty new but so far,  not so good.  Games are still accessible through ill gotten means no matter what protection the egg heads cook up.  Worse still is the amount of funds that get diverted away from game development/refinement that these large corps like EA and UBI spend on it.

As I said before, in this day and age of out of the box thinking making the uber bucks (google for just one example) these days, it's a little baffling why large corps like UBI and EA keep dumping all this money into protecting such an in the box method of delivery/sales.  There has to be some way to make use of P2P as a method of delivery and at the same time, a model for generating positive revenue.

[MONOLITH]

 Several game companies continue to spend millions on copyright protection of software to keep alive a simply outdated business model of boxes on store shelves.  Digital delivery for the PC gamer is simply a better choice, especially when you start factoring in bit-torrent technology.There has to be some way to make use of P2P as a method of delivery and at the same time, a model for generating positive revenue.

I agree with you 1000%.

I have to assume that digital downloading of purchased game software is definately the way of the future; completely ending the costs involved with packaging and physical delivery systems. (Bye Bye EBGames).

Bad news for the weirdos like me though who have a packaging fetish. I think I like the game boxes on my shelf as much as the games themselves; All lined up like little trophies.

Plus, I will miss the nice printed game manual, and the world maps, and other goodies that come inside the box. I still have the old style large box from Ghost Recon 1, right next to Rogue Spear Urban Ops. It's like old family photos.

Somehow, a digital PDF you have to print out yourself, and no box art, all seems too clinically sterilized.

But you're right. P2P downloading and no more mall geeks asking me "would you like to pre-order sumpthin'?" or "For 3 dollars you can buy the store warranty on this game" is the way we're headed; and fiscally smart for game companies.

and new anti-pirating methods that actually work are in order.