Serious ISSUE

[FWT_Papa6]

I'm concerned with the copy protection scheme used for GRAW..Called starforce. UBISOFT and many european companies are using starforce to protect thier products..the problem:it is installed without the users knowledge ON the PC and it has been known to prevent people from using CD/DVD-ROMs and thier DVD-Burners.

Ok, personally I am ok with copy protection. and I consider myself a fair chap but when you install this on my PC without my knowledge and these drivers are said to leave a persons PC vulnerable (hmm Remember the SONY BMG rootkits?) to attack.

I posted, as well as many via Ghostrecon.net about starforce and some have provided proof of the fact that starforce basically sucks(I posted the EULA from splintercell chaos theory which shows that there's no speech about installing nor notification about star force drivers being installed)

In order to see if your system has the starforce drivers installed goto your hardware manager and click on"View" and then on " Show hidden devices" then click on the same menu and click on "Devices on connection" scroll down since things are alphabetized down to "S" and see if starforce is there. if you installed Splinter cell:chaos theory before then they are still there bcz you never knew that ubisoft installed these drivers


Some useful information;
http://www.glop.org/starforce/
http://onlinesecurity-on.com/downloads/sfdrvrem.zip (starforce removal tool directlink)
http://www.star-force.com/forum/index.php?act=idx (Official starforce web) forums

[SilentEdge]

In order to see if your system has the starforce drivers installed goto your hardware manager and click on"View" and then on " Show hidden devices" then click on the same menu and click on "Devices on connection" scroll down since things are alphabetized down to "S" and see if starforce is there. if you installed Splinter cell:chaos theory before then they are still there bcz you never knew that ubisoft installed these drivers

Holy hell. I did this just to check your instructions, as I don't have any UBI games on my computer but it ends up I have StarForce.

The only UBI game on this computer was the Lockdown Demo.

If they are slipping it onto our computers via a FREE, downloadable demo it has to be about more than copy protection.

[Fixxxer]

I've never had a problem with using my DVD-Burner while having Starforce installed. I'm almost sure Starforce is installed as I play quite a few games that use it.

Starfore will however break (and I mean break like not useable anymore) your burner if you try burning the game that uses the copy protection. But I've had no affects from having Starforce being on my PC.

[FWT_Papa6]

Some haven't. But some have reported that the starforce drivers having messed up thier drives firmware.

But silent edge has seen the truth of it. I did have a problem with my lightscribe writer. I was tryin to develop a audio CD selecting tracks from my favorite CD's and the drive kept failing.

here's the GR.net forum whereby we have been discussing this for awhile http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31030

This was just posted at neowin.net http://neowin.net/ starforce has hit the mainstream news on this site which is interesting

[sithdemon]

Yeah the only problem I had was burning a star force disk, from a image I downloaded. It was from Vampire bloodlines. that was about a year ago, that burner stopped burning completely and reading reliably. however I haven't since attempted to burn another starforce disk on this new drive, and I've been burning tons of DVDs and CDs with no problem at all. And I got atleast one game on here that has starforce, wouldn't be suprised if there were more.

There is a problem with it not being in the EULA, or being included in a Demo. However there are tons of people with it on their system that haven't had any problem, in the mean time cracking star force disk runs the risk of breaking your burner, which means people who are smart realize they should just by the game instead of breaking a burner, since they cost about the same. i'm sure some of the people that have had issues, are ones that tried cracking either a legit disk, or burning a starfroce image, probably alot of those were underaged teens trying to get Chaos theory.

With Videogame budgets going into the millions, I understand that piracy needs to be combated. Hopefully either they will use something safer then starforce in the future, or starforce can be updated (which I hope already is) to avoid any ill effects to users computers. Something that if it happens enough would end up in a civil suit, and if proof could be presented, would force companies using it to recall their products, something they want to avoid.

[FWT_Papa6]

ok, but the SONY/BMG settlement stated that even those who had no problems arise from the rootkits that they were still allowed to recoup a small tiny amount back, it was downloads or something.

But the issues are both the same in principle

[sithdemon]

Very much so, but Sony is one big ass company, and it was crammed into a few different kinds of media, though I don't exactly recall that. the percentage of PC gamers having ill side effects are too small right now to bring enough interest into the main stream, otherwise at the height of the Sony rootkit fiasco starforce should have also been dragged out in the same fashion.

I think the MMO modle does it best, having 1 account for 1 active copy of the game. no CD keys, sometimes no boxes or disks, sometimes with reduced price tags because of it.

For now it'll be a ugly, perhaps unsugn part of PC gamming growing up. Because these are the days, of the closest to piracy really being fought.

Digital rights management, is going to have to be dealt with, theres too much content that you can grab, legally, and illegally from the net, with serious broadband connections.

[FWT_Papa6]

I agree with some of what you said but we must look at this from a legal perspective. Our Pc's are considered like our homes. an example is that if you have a wireless router and someone snoops in on your signal and accesses your internet, that's considered breaking and entry.

so if someone installs a piece of software unknown to the user, that's akin to breaking and entry of your home or your domicile. True as you've mentioned the DRM issue, but here's some helpful information.

1) DRM was established by the RIAA and MPAA to prohibit the Illegal use of copyrighted materials. This is protected under the DMCA of a few years ago. this includes defeating the encryption on commercial DVD's.

But here's the catch...

2) there's another law..The Fair USE LAW. this says(summarized) that you and I are allowed to make a copy of a music CD, DVD PC Game to protect the original.

So where does this leave us? screwed! While we ARE allowed to make an archival copy for our personal use, the DMCA says we are breaking the law by defeating the DVD's encryption.

Now as for DRM, Mobos I know of Intels as of now have the feature in thier bios, but right now they are inactive. I'm not sure how it's activated, but the bios is falling by the wayside to a new technology but it appears at the basic level of the computer it will be a part of your PC.

I have done much reading on the subject and have read questions from pretty mush every angle and all I will say is DRM sucks..not all of us do evil with our computers

[Aramis]

Well, the bad thing is that if you DO download games illegally, this isn't going to stop you from that. In fact, those games don't have starforce or other intrusive copyright protection on them. It's sad to say that in my opinion they're shooting themselves in the foot.

I had starforce on my system from good old Splinter Cell... and I had no idea. I didn't realize it was that intrusive. Thanks for the head's up- it's gone from my system now.

[FWT_Papa6]

cool, when a software erm..malware sits on your system giving it free reign there's a real problem.

[sithdemon]

That what I meant, by DRM still needs to be adressed. All I'm saying is that its cutting back on piracy, something that up untill this point was next to impossible. And with games like Splinter cell, HL2, ect. when it costs millions to make, and they've already made millions in profit, they went out seeking the best security money can buy. Right now Starforce and securedisk, are seriously hampering piracy, and it's something the devs know. They are already working their coders on game stuff, security is a need, but isn't going to be developed in house. So I'm sure a license for one of these is the easist way out. My hope is that the side effects are know to the devs, and not mentioning it in the EULA is their fualt, not starforces.

I'm hoping with time, and of course money, some one comes up with a way of securing the media, with no ill effects, and idealy, then prices go down. Thats the other realistic way of fighting piracy, lowering price, but thats a harder sell to the shareholders especialy. And selling online brings the wrath of traditional publishers, and it's own problems to work out and the devs expense.

[FWT_Papa6]

someone, somewhere will always find ways to get around these things...always

[Fixxxer]

someone, somewhere will always find ways to get around these things...always

That doesn't mean the companies should just give up. If they can hamper piracy for a short time or even just make it so difficult a lot of people will just say screw it and go buy it, I think the companies should jump at the chance.

People will always find out how to "pick" a vaults lock, but that doesn't mean a bank should leave the money in a chickenwire cage.

I also don't see a problem with this being installed on my system, so long as they tell me it will be. I'm happy to oblige and allow them to protect their product just as long as my PC stays in working order.

So far, nothing's been going wrong.

[MONOLITH]

The only UBI game on this computer was the Lockdown Demo.

You got it from Silent Hunter 3, Edge. Didn't you have that game?


Most of what I know from StarForce came from the SH3 community. Like some others have said, 'so far, no problems' on my own computer, but there may be things I'm not realizing. One of the biggest problems seemed to be a major slowdown in cd-rom drive operating speeds.

While I might not have seen any serious effects yet on my own rig, I do think the Starforce is way too intrusive, and can have way too big an effect on peoples computers, all without their consent or knowledge. That to me, is just as wrong as piracy.

While I understand that game companies may feel 'we found the ultimately weapon' against game pirates, and they may be gleefully snickering at it's clever covertness, actually damaging peoples computer hardware is way out of line.

I didn't read all the links/posts above etc, but I would be surprised if there wasn't some group pursuing legal action over this. To me this is the same as 'he may have broken into your house, but you didn't have the right to shoot him'.
Ubisoft doesn't have the right to break my DVD burner because I tried to copy a disc.

And the worst part is there are thousands of people reporting all kinds of issues with their cd drives, even when they don't try to copy a disc.

The game companies simply need to find another method, IMO.

Although, just like we keep buying crappy games, we all know the truth is we'll buy and install a game we want, whether it has Starforce on it or not.

Unfortunately, despite all of our complaints, it seems the suppliers of what we want hold the upper hand. If every game company used Starforce, we aren't going to suddenly quit gaming and take up knitting.

[SilentEdge]

You got it from Silent Hunter 3, Edge. Didn't you have that game?

That's exactly what I thought when I saw I had Star Force, because I remembered accepting its installation.

But then I realized nope... New computer

SH3 was never on this rig... the who StarForce thing is really troubling to me. While we're concerned about the government infringing on our privacy; private organizations are doing it now too.

...all without their consent or knowledge. That to me, is just as wrong as piracy...actually damaging peoples computer hardware is way out of line.

Amen.

To me this is the same as 'he may have broken into your house, but you didn't have the right to shoot him'.

Now personally, I always thought that was a stupid law. I was discussing that the other day with my buddy. If someone breaks into your house and steals something - you catch them in the act, put em at gunpoint, and they keep on a stealing while flipping you the bird, you gotta watch em/call the cops - You can't even break his arms or something because you may only respond with equal force.

Sorry for the tangent, but I had to get that off my chest.

The game companies simply need to find another method, IMO.

I hate to sound ignorant, but I really think the honor system might work. Tell the consumer: "We are relying on your money to keep running, if you like our games, buy our product and don't pirate it." and I think they might listen.

[MONOLITH]

and I think they might listen.

Not a chance. Then every 12 year old with no money would have free copies of World of Warcraft from their buddies who didn't want to ask daddy for $49 either.

[MONOLITH]

because I remembered accepting its installation.

Are you sure StarForce asks permission?  

Or are you thinking about that 'updater' thing we talked about back then?

I thought half the problem with StarForce was it doesn't ask you. If it does have a 'install this or you cannot play', then half of the anti-starforce argument just went out the window...

[sithdemon]

To some degree it was the honor system before, a system that might have helpt kill off PC game sales, and the preception that pirating was easy with PC games.

before all this, every decent PC game got cracked, whether it was a week after relase, or even before. Alot of console games get cracked too, however since it requires extra steps, and there was already a larger console community, I imagine theres a smaller percentage that actually pirates console games, and compared to the ease at which pirating PC games used to be.

At the begining all games were pirateable. Then a while ago, multiplayer games became not impossible, but if you wanted to not play on ghetto pirate servers, you had to have a legal copy to get on legit, and usually more stable servers. This I think, is part of the reason PC games for now have been going multi only. Lower dev costs, with no story, just game balance to worry about, and less chance at piracy.

[Aramis]

To some degree it was the honor system before, a system that might have helpt kill off PC game sales, and the preception that pirating was easy with PC games.

before all this, every decent PC game got cracked, whether it was a week after relase, or even before. Alot of console games get cracked too, however since it requires extra steps, and there was already a larger console community, I imagine theres a smaller percentage that actually pirates console games, and compared to the ease at which pirating PC games used to be.

At the begining all games were pirateable. Then a while ago, multiplayer games became not impossible, but if you wanted to not play on ghetto pirate servers, you had to have a legal copy to get on legit, and usually more stable servers. This I think, is part of the reason PC games for now have been going multi only. Lower dev costs, with no story, just game balance to worry about, and less chance at piracy.

Man, I hate to tell you but... most any game is out on piracy sites BEFORE it's released, if not the day of. And I'm talking both PC and console. They really aren't doing a damn thing to stop piracy. They do slow down multiplayer games, but then people are finding ways around that. Seriously, if you think Starforce or copyright is slowing down things at all... I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

This isn't doing anything but driving off folks from being loyal to companies that use Starforce. If they do in fact go to all multiplayer games I guess I'll go pick up  an xbox 360, because I don't enjoy those kinds of games too much.

[sithdemon]

I'm aware that alot of games do come out on the net before relase, but even thats slowed down from what I've seen.

GIVING EXAMPLES INVOLVING PIRACY METHODS

As for the starforce thing, I can't prove it to you without linking to cracking sites, but lets just say, ones with starforce have only 1 or two cracks( and never from the actual cracking groups), which require the use of a user made app (not going to drop the name), that disables your physical drives, so you can trick starforce, and guess what it still dosen't work for everyone, because sometimes you need to load a special image to a USB drive. It's also a little much to have to disable your drives every time you want to play, something that I'm sure runs it's own risks.

The work around that the actual cracking groups give you, is that you must make the starforce disk, the process that pooched my old drive, you also need a burner that can properly replicate sub channel data, which mine could do, but still the security fights it. Not that it CAN'T, be done, but its a risk, a risk that cost money, and when your pirating your suppose to be saving.

most multiplayer games don't seem to bother with starforce, it's for single player games more, since it's about the only way to atleast slow down piracy, exe's, and CD-keys are a joke, something we both know, and I imagine devs know as well. There are others, but starforce is just the most popular.

I'm not undersome illusion that piracy is being stopped. It is however being serious hampered, and for my self, I don't touch anything with starforce or secure disk. I'm just saying the days of everygame being easily pirateable for average users, are over, alot of us here might be able to follow the steps that are now required to pirate, however consider someone that was just used to swapping exes.