Why I'm fed up with GRAW.

[Ronin]

That comment is gonna piss someone off. :hmm:

Well, they can get pissed off all they want.  It doesn't change anything.    Besides, when you get to be my age everybody under 30 sure _looks_ like a kid. :moon: :wink:

I think that the game isn't made for fast reflexes, because honestly, the controller isn't all that fast. I don't know that the 360 game is all that different from the pc as I haven't played the pc version, but in my mind if anything they probably just made it a little easier and a little more run n' gun, as that's what they typically do. Maybe Wolfsong can add some more insight on that.

I have played some of GRAW on the XBox and I've played all of it on the PC.  I cannot control the game worth a crap on the XBox.  And I probably don't have the patience to learn to use a game controller anymore.  After playing with a mouse and keyboard (and joysticks) for so long, the inaccuracy of a game controller just irritates me.

For a long time XBoxes have basically been a toy for kids.  Sure some adults played them.  But the huge majority of them are played by kids.  And kids want things to move fast and go boom a lot.  Mono is trying to play this game on the 360. And I think part of the problem is that the pace of the game is geared for kids who don't care much about dieing as long as things move fast and go boom a lot.  He might be happier playing it on the PC (although the graphics pretty well suck).

You make a point.  The GRiN folks may have changed the maps (I don't know if they made whole new ones or not since I haven't played it on XBox enough to know) to try to slow the pace of the game to appeal more to the older people playing on the PC.  They may have, I just don't know.  As you say, Wolfsong could probably elucidate on that.

From my experience playing with a controller is pretty inexact.  So the game incorporates things like auto-aiming to deal with it.  Games designed for a console are just _different_ than games designed for a PC.  Not just because of the intended audiences (PC gamers are usually adults whereas your typical console player is under 30 and usually a teenager) but because of the hardware involved.  There are even design considerations.

When I was working on a port of Doom for id Software I talked to John Carmack about the XBox port of Doom and why it had different levels than the PC version.  He said that the levels for 3D games were generally flattened out for consoles.  I asked why and he said it was because of the constraints of playing with a game pad.  It was easier to deal with left/right than up/down because of the aiming issues.  Even with auto-aiming added shooting up and down was just harder to do.  I realized then that porting games between the two was going to be harder than just moving the code.  The design needed to change, too. (NOTE: I did not do the port of Doom to the XBox.  I was working on a port to something else.)

The consoles have definitely gotten more powerful and have more resources to work with, now.  So there isn't as much constraint put on the games for consoles as there were.  But they still use controllers to play and that limits them both in the number and type of controls but also in how the games are approached.  It also means that your target audience is different.  The last part will probably change over time especially since consoles have gotten considerably more expensive and the average age of your console players goes up.

When I was 20 years old, there were no PCs.  None.  For someone 20 years old today.  PCs have been around all their lives.  The only game console I saw for years was Pong.  Then you had to go to arcades to play other games (computer based).  20 year olds today have grown up with game consoles and controllers.  They are familiar with them and many have played with them all their lives. Large numbers of them have never played games on a PC.  This is why we have the demographic that we have today.

In 20 years time, I think there will be console games that appeal to people in my (current) age group (40 to 50).  I also think that the inputs will have to change to allow for people who just aren't kids anymore.

Am I a game console snob?  Maybe.  I've viewed them for a long time as just a kids toy.  Something adults just don't play with.  After getting beaten a lot by my niece (when she was about 10) playing on her Nintendo,  I decided that consoles _were_ just for kids.  They were the only ones with the reflexes to work the controller.

Maybe that attitude needs to change.  But my recent experiences with the XBox and its controller have pretty much reinforced my belief that consoles just aren't for me.  Trying to play Ghost Recon 2 was an exercise in frustration.  I have never gotten past the first firefight in the game.  After about 25 attempts, I just quit with it and looked for something easier where I could play without getting killed every 30 seconds.

When I see Monolith complain about the game being so hard, I can't help but wonder that it's because of the pace designed into the 360 version of the game.  I'm also certain I could not do as well as he's done with it.  But I see his frustration and I can't help but think that it's because of the platform he's playing it on.

People tell me the 360 controller is easier to use.  I'm not willing to pay several hundred dollars to find out.  So, I just bitch and moan about it... :roll:

Hey, Monolith what are your _PC_ specs, now?  I have a bunch of PC parts laying around here.  What might you need to update your PC to play GRAW on the PC? (or Vegas)

[MONOLITH]

the game puts them in the exact same spot every time.

Heh. Indeed.

And at 150 tangos per level or more, you may still have to do it 50 times to memorize them all and survive the uber AI. And there isn't much fun in just going through the motions of a memorized course. Twice? Now I think you're just trying to bust my chops.

One issue with the enemy AI, is the human element is completely non existent. Meaning... If I snipe somebody from a roof, the entire map shouldn't immediately know where I am and all fire at me. The computer doesn't create any "they're looking for me" aspect. It's instantaneous. Fire a shot, and 6 guys instantly pinpoint you. Take this rooftop mission we're talking about; the very first thing you have to do is take out the roadblock on the street in front of you. I peek my head over the wall to see what's down there, and I can't even peg off one guy before they all fire on me, because the game is programmed to almost instantly see you. And what's even worse, I get a couple of sniper rifle shots off and kill a tango on the street. They all fire up at me. okay, no problem. I duck, run completely around the roof to the other side, and try to hit another from a different angle. They magically begin firing at my new location, instantly. The computer cheats and followed me the entire way to the new location. Those tangos should have still been facing/firing at my old location. But instead, they were instanly ready for me at my new location. There's no outflanking or outsmarting these super soldiers. This is one of the reasons the solo missions are so frustrating, because with this type of AI programming, it is absolutetly imperative to have other teammates to create crossfires. Even perfect AI can't fire two directions at once.

Remember in GR1 PC, you could fire some shots, and then the hillbilly looking rebels would head that direction, but you could easily move under cover and see them looking for you as you flanked them? They had a human element of imperfection. The castle demo map... Your team started down that little hill, and you could peek over the hill, fire a shot at the 3 or 4 rebels headed your way on the left of the castle, then duck and wait. They would round the castle front, then search toward the entrance looking for you and you could surprise them and pick them off. I can remember countless times in GR 1, watching a rebel walked past me looking for me, and shooting him in the side of the head. "The Ghosts" I think we were called, yes? Remember how you could get up on the castle wall, and watch tangos through the house windows and snipe them one by one?  There's NONE of this element in GRAW. Fire ONE shot, and the AI instantly spins and shoots right at you. It's like the devs coded the AI to simply see you after a shot is fired, instead of "search in your direction". That makes for a very difficult, and un-fun shooter. I'm fighting pure psychic robots. Remember GR1, that prison map at nighttime? You could start that level way out from the edge of the map, snipe a guy, and then watch his buddies searching around in the dark for you in the 'general direction' of your shot. You could move around in the dark and snipe another, move, repeat. With GRAW 360, snipe a guy, and then they all fire right at you , and you cannot evade/lose them.

And just since the 360 to PC comparison was brought up, I have both, and the PC version the AI has the human element I'm talking about. In PC, you can watch tangos milling about doing human search patterns, and you can trick them by firing a shot, running around the corner and coming up behind them while they search your old position.

With the 360, the computer just turns to your location. It's like a total cheat, in favor of the enemy AI.  In fact, I can think of a few places in GRAW 360 where I could see which direction a tango was facing, come around the block a different way, and the f*cker would still instantly spin around and face me. From a scripting standpoint, it's like they simply put a very wide trigger circle around each tango, and as soon as you cross that circle, the computer spins the tango to face you.

Think Splinter Cell, and how much you can sneak right up behind somebody, almost unrealistically. Think the total opposite, and that's GRAW 360.


And there's no way they made the 360 more "run n' gun". Like Baja said, he has to go painfully slow, because one slight step too far ahead with the psychic AI and they peg your ass long before you ever see them. Then starts the painful process of starting over, and working through 'memorized placements' until you get one street further, get pegged again, and start over again, with one more memorized tango location. The gameplay of GRAW 360 can easily be characterized this way; every single tango ambushes you; then you restart the level knowing where you just got shot from and do it again until the next ambush. In GR1, you could sneak up on 3 of those rebels standing around a fire, kill one of them, the other two would run for cover and then LOOK FOR YOU. and you COULD evade them. There is no evasion in GRAW. The computer cheats.
It seems like devs got tired of kids complaining that games were too easy, AI was too stupid, so now they've made sure it's freakin hard.

Ronin, you're too quick to say "my reflexes are too old". There's no way we're that bad. The game devs just didn't level the playing field properly. Look at the sheer number of tangos you face in one level alone, combined with the few hits you can take and survive, combined with each enemy has computerized radar for a brain.

GRAW would be much , much better if it had the health recovery system Vegas has. At least then you could duck for a second, restore, and then go after that tango you didn't see, instead of endlessly re-doing the level. With GRAW 360, as soon as I see my health is yellow, I might as well hit restart, becasue I know there's no way I'm gonna make it past the next tango.


But I can't get through Vegas either, so maybe I do just suck. But in thinking about it, just like GRAW 360 vs GRAW PC, I could get through levels in Ravenshield PC, but I can't with Vegas 360. In considering I'm encountering this issue with both GRAW and VEGAS, PC vs console, I think there's a serious difference in the AI programming between PC and console, and it's not my abilities as a player to blame.

Maybe you guys are correct about the run n gun aspect of console, in this regard; Devs know PC gamers are a different breed, and program the AI and gameplay acccordingly. They also know consoles tended to be more run n gun type kids, so they left out the more human tactical element to the AI. That makes sense. But run n gun to me always meant stupid AI so you could get away with no tactical planning. GRAW 360 may be more run n gun, but with very hard cheating AI, and combining those two things makes for a very unenjoyable playing experience.

And I just realized, at the end of GRAW 2 demo; you have that pretty darn smart mortor rounds following you everywhere creating Run N Gun type chaos, and then at least two enemy helicopters ripping you to shreds and you can't do much about that either.

I have a bad feeling GRAW 2 is going to have this same type of sh#t as GRAW 1.  :hmm:  I was pretty happy about my 360 purchase, but now seeing all of this, I may be headed back to investing in the PC. I'll probably buy Vegas for PC, and make the comparison. If what I have been saying still holds true, that will decide it for me.

EDIT IN:  Realizing that even with Gears of War, the 'great game of the year'; it turned out to be a lot of very scripted linear pathed run n gun, with almost no tactical element whatsoever. I think there is definately a pattern here in console vs PC.

[Wolfsong]

As you say, Wolfsong could probably elucidate on that.

Been asking around some and this is what I've found out.

The PC version and the 360 version (as well as the rest) had the same level design documents.

For the PC version, GRiN and UBI decided to cut 1 or 2 missions due to the fact that they didn't work with the features GRiN had developed (whom aren't on the console versions) and/or without the features GRiN had cut (whom are on the console versions).

The levels for the PC version where built by GRiN, based on the common design documents. But as most people know, design documents only has a birds eye view of the map with objectives and rough troop placements/movements. It doesn't show how houses are supposed to look or be placed as long as it basically the same map. This is where GRiN had some of their most freedom to play around with their own ideas and create ways for the player to move around the map. So it's clear that the look of the maps won't be the same for PC and console versions, but the objectives should basically be the same (some adjustments where made here as well).

The exact same situation has occurred with GRAW2, but now with even more differences in features between the PC and console version. So expect even more differences between the PC and console maps in GRAW2.

As for using the same maps in both versions, sure it can be done but it's proven to actually be more work to convert a map between the two engines then to remake it (which explains why not all MP maps from the console version are not just bundled into the PC version).

That's what I've gotten from the people at GRiN when I asked.

[Wolfsong]

the game puts them in the exact same spot every time.

Heh. Indeed.
And at 150 tangos per level or more, you may still have to do it 50 times to memorize them all and survive the uber AI. And there isn't much fun in just going through the motions of a memorized course. Twice? Now I think you're just trying to bust my chops.

In the 1.35 patch for the PC version, scripts for spawning random enemy groups and activate random events where added. So I would expect they will be used in the PC version of GRAW2. :wink:

[MONOLITH]

Excellent Wolf.

Guess I better upgrade my rig soon.

[BajaBravo]

The exact same situation has occurred with GRAW2, but now with even more differences in features between the PC and console version. So expect even more differences between the PC and console maps in GRAW2.

That's music to my ears!

[MONOLITH]

A few of tips about that (R6: Vegas).

So, I did change up my tactics a little with Vegas today, and successully got thru my sticking point.

I'll also say, that in studying the tango AI in Vegas compared to GRAW, I have to say it's much more realistic in Vegas than GRAW.  In Vegas, I could set up a crossfire, and while my team was blazing away, I sat across the street and just waited for some tangos to try to flank them. I sat and watched as tangos walked towards me sideways (while facing my teammates cross the street) and almost got right on top of me before realizing I was there.

With GRAW, I believe the game would have cheated and the tango would have noticed me right from the beginning.

[Aramis]

Heh. Indeed.

And at 150 tangos per level or more, you may still have to do it 50 times to memorize them all and survive the uber AI. And there isn't much fun in just going through the motions of a memorized course. Twice? Now I think you're just trying to bust my chops.

Maybe I exaggerated, but I remember getting hit once from a sniper and once or twice from the guys around the area. Honestly, I remember that as being one of the easier ones for me.

I've honestly not got that many complaints about the enemy AI. My thing is the friendly AI of squadmates. I think maybe because I just got done with GoW that I didn't really try that much flanking as I did taking cover and taking them out from the safety of that cover. Honestly, I don't think I tried a flanking maneuver once so much as I did lean out from cover and squeeze off a few shots before ducking back again.

Again, that may be why you're more frustrated about it than I. Different playstyles.

PC and 360 both have their selling points, but I continue to enjoy my 360 experience. GRAW was a fun game- certainly not perfect, but one I did enjoy and I look forward to #2.

[Ronin]

In GRAW on the PC, I've noticed that some elements will be in the same place every time.  But some elements will appear one of two or more places.  Some of this is due to patrolling behavior, I'm sure.  But some of it just appears to be several spawn points tied to together somehow for the same element so it adds some randomness.

I've also found, at least on the PC, that by going into areas where you not supposed to be yet, you can clear out some of the tangos and not have to deal with them while you're doing the protection thing.

I've also found that there are certain places to expect snipers.  Maybe this is just from the design of the maps.  But certain types of buildings you can almost always expect a sniper to appear.  Sometimes a sniper and an RPG gunner.

There don't appear to be nearly as many tangos on the maps for the PC.  So it's easier to remember where they are (or at least the area where they are grouped).

I agree with you completely on your points, Monolith.  And if you say it's not the speed that's the problem then I'm not going to argue.  You know your abilities and what you're having a problem with.

I do think, though, that the pacing on the PC and 360 are different.  It sounds as though there are more tangos on the 360.  That implies to me that you are expected to be quicker on the 360 than on the PC.

The über AI cheating happens on the PC as well.  The AI usually knows where you are once they have spotted you.  I've taken out one tango from a fire team (two man) and the second element returns fire EXACTLY at my position. This is in the dark and they are 100 meters away.  And I'm CERTAIN the tango that I didn't shoot was looking the other way when I fired.  Not only that, but I was shooting a suppressed weapon.  Low muzzle flash and very little report.  It would be impossible for a human to nail me like that.  But there's no looking around for a muzzle flash or anything.  They just _know_ where you are and start firing at you immediately.  They even get a sight picture in about 1/4 of a second.

But, I have also found that if you use a suppressed weapon and fire from a position where only your target can see your muzzle flash, the other AIs won't know where you are.  They didn't hear or see your shot.  Only the result.  This has been the only way I've found around their magic targeting.  This might work for you on the 360.

Another thing that bothers me about the AI is their uncanny ability to hit you a split second after you break cover and even on the run.  They go from not knowing you are there to having already tracked and shot you in about 1 second.  That's just impossible for humans.

The AI is dumb.  So it cheats to try to make it "challenging".

If the maps for the 360 were made using the Unreal Editor, then I can see why the maps for the PC were different.  Unreal Ed is stores maps as class data so the format that isn't easily portable to another engine.  The PC maps were probably done in Max (I guess).  So it's not a surprise that they're different.

I think GRAW would have been better if they had stuck with the Unreal 3 engine, though, like R6Vegas did.  The visuals on Vegas are far better than GRAW's.  They could have spent more time working on the game itself, then, rather than duplicating the efforts of the 360 dev team.  I think that was a poor decision on the part of UBISoft.

I still would have to play the demo for GRAW 2 and like it before I bought it.  If it's just more of the same, then I'm going to pass on GRAW 2.  My biggest sticking point is the rendering.  If they still can't get a decent image out using that much rendering power, then I won't buy it.

@Mono, since you say that GRAW is too easy with the targeting pips turned on (I _think_ that's what you said), and that it's frustratingly hard with them turned off.  Maybe you should try the higher difficulty level with the targeting pips turned on.  That might be a level of difficulty that works for you.

On the PC, unless the drone or your team sees tangos, they are not "illuminated".  So most of the time I play with no target information other than my Mark 1 eyeballs.

Anyway, I wish I had a reference for what you're seeing.  But since I can't get past the first level on the XBox version,  I'll just have to guess.  Your scenario sounds kind of similar.  But it's quite different from the PC version.
It also sounds like the PC version doesn't have as many tangos to deal with.

The Ready for Bear scenario seems to have about 40 tangos on the PC with four panhards and two enemy Abrams tanks.  There are also a couple of helos to take out as the tanks are reaching the arming hangar. A side mission is to take out another helo before it gets airborne.

[Wolfsong]

If the maps for the 360 were made using the Unreal Editor, then I can see why the maps for the PC were different.  Unreal Ed is stores maps as class data so the format that isn't easily portable to another engine.  The PC maps were probably done in Max (I guess).  So it's not a surprise that they're different.

360 maps where made in Max. But as the maps in the PC version aren't really maps but pieces to build maps from, it's still a lot of work converting them.

That and the different shader support on the two engines and detail. PC has in general higher detail on everything then the 360 has. It has higher poly environments (when acceptable to give more detail of course) and normalmaps on everything.

This leads to different priorities in where textures have to have higher res and where they can tile. And that leads to almost all textures needing to be remade when converting.

And then there are more tags (and different types of tags) for the AI on each object for the PC version due to the differences in the features.

Then ligthing is done in different ways also, more lightmapping on PC to save resources to other features. Need for ambient cubes all over the maps to provide ambient light for the placed props.

More? There may be more things that work differently that I don't know.

[MONOLITH]

So, I feel I should say things are much better for me with Vegas. I'm using better tactics and playing much smarter.

I'm using the team better. I used to go in first and have them follow. That's just the way I am, real life or game. But I can't be healed, and they can. Now they go first and I follow or flank.

I'm also always seperating us into crossfiring positions.

Another thing I was not doing before was utilizing the mini map to see where the tangos are. Now as soon as they say "Tango spotted", I'm looking at the map and adjusting my crossfiring position. Also per Ronin's advice, I'm keeping the team on infiltrate, to give me time to get into position before they open fire.

Flanking is definately an integral part of being successful in this game. And it goes both ways, because the tangos flank constantly. When my team sees a tango, I watch him on the mini map, and I see him go completely around the perimeter of the room to get behind us. This is standard tactics for the tangos in Vegas.

While I still think I'm dissatisfied with the GRAW AI, I think the Vegas AI is superb. They're using cover well, moving to flanking or retreat positions well, and usually looking in the right directions that you would expect of a human.

The only thing I really wish there was, was the ability to direct your team from the mini map. I can't send them into a new flanking position unless I can see that spot and A button it. A little cursor on the mini map with a 'go here now' button would be sweet.


I will go back into GRAW and try to adjust my tactics there as well, but I really think Vegas is the far superior game. I just think GRAW AI is very stagnant and cheats. Vegas AI demonstrates human flaws, which levels the playing field a bit considering how outnumbered you are.

[MONOLITH]

@Aramis, re:GRAW

Things are getting better there too. I got through the roof sniping mission (Ronin, it's "Bulldog" on the 360), and mostly through the next one without too much difficulty.

Again, I changed up my tactics and started using more of my available resources, like I described for Vegas above. I make sure I use all my handgrenades, I use all my smoke, I set my team up in crossfires, and I sent them into trouble spots first. There are times when I have to heal all 3 of them, but at Least I didn't take the shots. At the supply trucks, I started grabbing the weapons with the grenade launcher too.

So I'm starting to enjoy it again. And so I guess a lot of my issues had to do with things I was doing wrong to some degree. So Yeah, I'm an idiot.

I'll definately stick to my opinion that the AI in Vegas is superior to GRAW though. The tangos simply move, behave, and even look more human in Vegas. They seem much less scripted in Vegas, they appear to actually think and respond in various ways to each situation. With GRAW, I don't really see where the enemy AI has evolved much since GR 1. The tangos are very stagnant, and when they see you, they either just stand there in the open and shoot at you, or they try to move forward towards you, but that's about it.

[Aramis]

@Aramis, re:GRAW

Things are getting better there too. I got through the roof sniping mission (Ronin, it's "Bulldog" on the 360), and mostly through the next one without too much difficulty.

That's good to hear.

I'll definately stick to my opinion that the AI in Vegas is superior to GRAW though. The tangos simply move, behave, and even look more human in Vegas. They seem much less scripted in Vegas, they appear to actually think and respond in various ways to each situation. With GRAW, I don't really see where the enemy AI has evolved much since GR 1. The tangos are very stagnant, and when they see you, they either just stand there in the open and shoot at you, or they try to move forward towards you, but that's about it.

I won't disagree with you that the AI is probably better- I haven't played it so I can't say one way or the other. However, the AI in GRAW does go prone if there's no cover, or ducks in and out, etc. They don't do much more than that though. No flanking.